S10-EV Mailing List Archive

I do not undrestand why you say "Clearly the truck will need new batteries to work?"
There is a good chance that those NiMh batteries can possibly be "woken Up" via a series of very slow trickle charges followed by full discharges.?Charge at say 500ma per battery. Don will correct me if the figure is wrong.? You are correct about charging. If you change to Lithium, you might want to use the original PbA charginging algorythm for your truck. Jeff also told me that it is suitable for some Li-ion.If you do switch to Lithium, then please do keep your NiMh batteries. Other owners will most definitely have a use for them in their trucks. LITHIUM?If the budget allows it, then pouch cells are the way to go. You can make up modules and get 160Amp Hours into the box. also the pouch cells are designed to be fully discharged and then dump charged without harm, which is a big bonus.?
Cheers Will
Today's Topics: ? 1. 1997 S10 EV PbA -> 2004 EV Bones NiMH -> 2021 Lithium
? ? ? Conversion? (Billy Caruso)
Hi all,
TLDR: I am seeking advice for getting lithium batteries into an S10 EV.
Here is a collection of S10 EV resources I've collected (manuals, flyers, etc.)https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1tptiS5aXI0pcZ87QZGznfIPPXqHC641-
My name is Billy and I live in Saratoga, CA. I own a few EVs including a 1994 US Electricar Geo Prizm and a 1999 Solectria Force. I picked up Gregg Bowman's 1997 S10 in Berkeley, CA this past summer. I'm a big fan of the EV1 so this is sort of a dream come true. After getting a new title, and doing my research I've come to the following thinking about how to get the car back up and running while preserving its originality and coolness:?The car currently has NiMH batteries which were upgraded by EV Bones in the early 2000s. Gregg drove it for a few years and after a trip away from home for a few weeks, the car would no longer take a charge. It sat in the carport for 10+ years. Today the Tech 2 reads 0 volts on every battery.
2 wall mount Magne Chargers were included. Both turn on when plugged in when the paddle is removed. They are in great condition. I attached one to a small dolly. I plan on attaching a J1772 inlet to the other.
Clearly the truck will need new batteries to work. I'd like to go ahead with a Lithium conversion while preserving the Magne Charge and original BPCM for battery management and charging.?
Original BPCMThe original BMS was set up to track 26 batteries (either PbA @ 12v or NiMH @ 13.2v) and the total voltage (either PbA @ 312 v or NiMh @ 343v).
The PbA were rated at 48Ah and the NiMh were rated at 85Ah.
There are two original charging profiles for the BPCM. It appears the PBA profile is better for charging LiFePO4 cells since they do not dip in voltage when nearing a full charge.?
See here for more on BPCM
New Batteries
Ideally all batteries can fit in the box. Does anyone have precise internal dimensions? (or a CAD rendering)? I am willing to cut the box and install a bed lift.
For a lithium upgrade, it seems like there are two straightforward ways to move forward:
1) 108 x CALB 3.2v cells = 345.6v
We can fool the BMS into thinking groups of 4 CALB cells are a 13.2v module.?
60AH and 85Ah are small enough to fit in the box, but 100Ah looks tight.?
What would the max Amp Hour be here that we could install in the truck? What is the max amp draw? The cells are rated at 2c. 2) 4 x BMW i3 Modules ?(See the full conversion here)
Does anyone have any advice or recommendations??
Best,Billy _______________________________________________
S10-EV mailing list
[email removed]
https://pairlist5.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev -------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://pairlist5.pair.net/mailman/private/s10-ev/attachments/20210209/f281a87d/attachment.html>

Regarding the use of the Ovonic NiMH modules While they might be useable, to do so however is with great risk. NiMH chemistry charging is done with overcharging balancing, which puts them in high risk of thermal runaway, and catching on fire. If you we?re going to use the Ovonic modules today, you need to charge the truck in a safe area. Where catching on fire wouldn?t go beyond the truck itself. The S-10 monitors module voltage not cell voltages. NiHM cells especially at end of service life use, would need voltage monitoring of every cell, as well as temperature sensors for every module at a minimum. The S-10 has neither and even doing this does not guarantee safe use. The batteries are 22 years old, if they work at all is quite a testament to the durability of the NiMH chemistry. As NiMH enters the end of its service life the internal resistance increases. The greater the resistance the more energy that will be converted to heat. To wake up any zero volt NiMH battery. best results is to use a much higher amperage then normal charging, until the cells come up to 1.2 volts then they are ready to fully charge and cycle to fully wake them up. At some point modules go into a thermal event, with thermal run away. If you don?t closely monitored the temperature, even using a fan during charging helps but is not enough. In the S-10 the heat pump will keep the overall pack temperature in control. If you trickle charge NiMH batteries, there will be cells that do not wake up, and just take the charge, and shunt the energy to heat and damage the cells. The NiMH batteries used in the S-10 and RAV4 have a very high rate of self discharge. I highly advise to never use a trickle charger and especially to wake them up. Just because something can be done doesn?t mean it should be. Using a 22 year old Ovonic pack, is going to be a disappointment in results at best. If the truck catches fire that would be a sad loss. Even worse if it catches something else, or your house on fire. Lithium and especially some lithium like LifePo4 is much safer, and offers far superior performance. Don Blazer Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 8, 2021, at 9:56 PM, William Calluthers via S10-EV <[email removed]> wrote:
> > ?
> I do not undrestand why you say "Clearly the truck will need new batteries to work "
> > There is a good chance that those NiMh batteries can possibly be "woken Up" via a series of very slow trickle charges followed by full discharges. > Charge at say 500ma per battery. Don will correct me if the figure is wrong. > > You are correct about charging. If you change to Lithium, you might want to use the original PbA charginging algorythm for your truck. Jeff also told me that it is suitable for some Li-ion.
> If you do switch to Lithium, then please do keep your NiMh batteries. Other owners will most definitely have a use for them in their trucks.
> > LITHIUM > If the budget allows it, then pouch cells are the way to go. You can make up modules and get 160Amp Hours into the box. also the pouch cells are designed to be fully discharged and then dump charged without harm, which is a big bonus. > > Cheers Will
> > Today's Topics:
> > 1. 1997 S10 EV PbA -> 2004 EV Bones NiMH -> 2021 Lithium
> Conversion? (Billy Caruso)
> Hi all,
> > TLDR: I am seeking advice for getting lithium batteries into an S10 EV.
> > Here is a collection of S10 EV resources I've collected (manuals, flyers, etc.)
> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1tptiS5aXI0pcZ87QZGznfIPPXqHC641-
> > My name is Billy and I live in Saratoga, CA. I own a few EVs including a 1994 US Electricar Geo Prizm and a 1999 Solectria Force.
> > I picked up Gregg Bowman's 1997 S10 in Berkeley, CA this past summer. I'm a big fan of the EV1 so this is sort of a dream come true. After getting a new title, and doing my research I've come to the following thinking about how to get the car back up and running while preserving its originality and coolness:
> > The car currently has NiMH batteries which were upgraded by EV Bones in the early 2000s. Gregg drove it for a few years and after a trip away from home for a few weeks, the car would no longer take a charge. It sat in the carport for 10+ years. Today the Tech 2 reads 0 volts on every battery.
> > 2 wall mount Magne Chargers were included. Both turn on when plugged in when the paddle is removed. They are in great condition. I attached one to a small dolly. I plan on attaching a J1772 inlet to the other.
> > Clearly the truck will need new batteries to work. I'd like to go ahead with a Lithium conversion while preserving the Magne Charge and original BPCM for battery management and charging. > > Original BPCM
> The original BMS was set up to track 26 batteries (either PbA @ 12v or NiMH @ 13.2v) and the total voltage (either PbA @ 312 v or NiMh @ 343v).
> > The PbA were rated at 48Ah and the NiMh were rated at 85Ah.
> > There are two original charging profiles for the BPCM. It appears the PBA profile is better for charging LiFePO4 cells since they do not dip in voltage when nearing a full charge. > > See here for more on BPCM
> > New Batteries
> > Ideally all batteries can fit in the box. Does anyone have precise internal dimensions? (or a CAD rendering)? I am willing to cut the box and install a bed lift.
> > For a lithium upgrade, it seems like there are two straightforward ways to move forward:
> > 1) 108 x CALB 3.2v cells = 345.6v
> > We can fool the BMS into thinking groups of 4 CALB cells are a 13.2v module. > > 60AH and 85Ah are small enough to fit in the box, but 100Ah looks tight. > > What would the max Amp Hour be here that we could install in the truck? What is the max amp draw? The cells are rated at 2c.
> > > 2) 4 x BMW i3 Modules (See the full conversion here)
> > Does anyone have any advice or recommendations? > > Best,
> Billy
> > > _______________________________________________
> S10-EV mailing list
> [email removed]
> https://pairlist5.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
> _______________________________________________
> S10-EV mailing list
> [email removed]
> https://pairlist5.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://pairlist5.pair.net/mailman/private/s10-ev/attachments/20210217/1a422b66/attachment.html>

Hi Don, Great points Don. Well put. We all wish they could be saved, but the fire risk is just too much even through our hearts still hope. s From: theoldcars [mailto:[email removed]]
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 11:04 PM
To: William Calluthers
Cc: [email removed]
Subject: Re: [S10-EV] 1997 S10 EV PbA -> 2004 EV Bones NiMH -> 2021 Lithium Conversion? (Billy Caruso) Regarding the use of the Ovonic NiMH modules While they might be useable, to do so however is with great risk. NiMH chemistry charging is done with overcharging balancing, which puts them in high risk of thermal runaway, and catching on fire. If you we?re going to use the Ovonic modules today, you need to charge the truck in a safe area. Where catching on fire wouldn?t go beyond the truck itself. The S-10 monitors module voltage not cell voltages. NiHM cells especially at end of service life use, would need voltage monitoring of every cell, as well as temperature sensors for every module at a minimum. The S-10 has neither and even doing this does not guarantee safe use. The batteries are 22 years old, if they work at all is quite a testament to the durability of the NiMH chemistry. As NiMH enters the end of its service life the internal resistance increases. The greater the resistance the more energy that will be converted to heat. To wake up any zero volt NiMH battery. best results is to use a much higher amperage then normal charging, until the cells come up to 1.2 volts then they are ready to fully charge and cycle to fully wake them up. At some point modules go into a thermal event, with thermal run away. If you don?t closely monitored the temperature, even using a fan during charging helps but is not enough. In the S-10 the heat pump will keep the overall pack temperature in control. If you trickle charge NiMH batteries, there will be cells that do not wake up, and just take the charge, and shunt the energy to heat and damage the cells. The NiMH batteries used in the S-10 and RAV4 have a very high rate of self discharge. I highly advise to never use a trickle charger and especially to wake them up. Just because something can be done doesn?t mean it should be. Using a 22 year old Ovonic pack, is going to be a disappointment in results at best. If the truck catches fire that would be a sad loss. Even worse if it catches something else, or your house on fire. Lithium and especially some lithium like LifePo4 is much safer, and offers far superior performance. Don Blazer
Sent from my iPhone On Feb 8, 2021, at 9:56 PM, William Calluthers via S10-EV <[email removed]> wrote:
?
I do not undrestand why you say "Clearly the truck will need new batteries to work " There is a good chance that those NiMh batteries can possibly be "woken Up" via a series of very slow trickle charges followed by full discharges.
Charge at say 500ma per battery. Don will correct me if the figure is wrong. You are correct about charging. If you change to Lithium, you might want to use the original PbA charginging algorythm for your truck. Jeff also told me that it is suitable for some Li-ion.
If you do switch to Lithium, then please do keep your NiMh batteries. Other owners will most definitely have a use for them in their trucks. LITHIUM
If the budget allows it, then pouch cells are the way to go. You can make up modules and get 160Amp Hours into the box. also the pouch cells are designed to be fully discharged and then dump charged without harm, which is a big bonus. Cheers Will Today's Topics: 1. 1997 S10 EV PbA -> 2004 EV Bones NiMH -> 2021 Lithium Conversion? (Billy Caruso)
Hi all, TLDR: I am seeking advice for getting lithium batteries into an S10 EV. Here is a collection of S10 EV resources I've collected (manuals, flyers, etc.)
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1tptiS5aXI0pcZ87QZGznfIPPXqHC641- My name is Billy and I live in Saratoga, CA. I own a few EVs including a 1994 US Electricar Geo Prizm and a 1999 Solectria Force. I picked up Gregg Bowman's 1997 S10 in Berkeley, CA this past summer. I'm a big fan of the EV1 so this is sort of a dream come true. After getting a new title, and doing my research I've come to the following thinking about how to get the car back up and running while preserving its originality and coolness: The car currently has NiMH batteries which were upgraded by EV Bones in the early 2000s. Gregg drove it for a few years and after a trip away from home for a few weeks, the car would no longer take a charge. It sat in the carport for 10+ years. Today the Tech 2 reads 0 volts on every battery. 2 wall mount Magne Chargers were included. Both turn on when plugged in when the paddle is removed. They are in great condition. I attached one to a small dolly. I plan on attaching a J1772 inlet to the other. Clearly the truck will need new batteries to work. I'd like to go ahead with a Lithium conversion while preserving the Magne Charge and original BPCM for battery management and charging. Original BPCM
The original BMS was set up to track 26 batteries (either PbA @ 12v or NiMH @ 13.2v) and the total voltage (either PbA @ 312 v or NiMh @ 343v). The PbA were rated at 48Ah and the NiMh were rated at 85Ah. There are two original charging profiles for the BPCM. It appears the PBA profile is better for charging LiFePO4 cells since they do not dip in voltage when nearing a full charge. See here<http://www.tzev.com/1998_s10e_BPCM_reverse_engineering.html> for more on BPCM New Batteries Ideally all batteries can fit in the box. Does anyone have precise internal dimensions? (or a CAD rendering)? I am willing to cut the box and install a bed lift. For a lithium upgrade, it seems like there are two straightforward ways to move forward: 1) 108 x CALB 3.2v cells = 345.6v We can fool the BMS into thinking groups of 4 CALB cells are a 13.2v module. 60AH and 85Ah are small enough to fit in the box, but 100Ah looks tight. What would the max Amp Hour be here that we could install in the truck? What is the max amp draw? The cells are rated at 2c. 2) 4 x BMW i3 Modules (See the full conversion here<https://www.diyelectriccar.com/threads/chevrolet-s-10-ev-battery-upgrade-to-bmw-i3-modules.204290/>) Does anyone have any advice or recommendations? Best,
Billy _______________________________________________
S10-EV mailing list
[email removed]<mailto:[email removed]>
https://pairlist5.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
_______________________________________________
S10-EV mailing list
[email removed]
https://pairlist5.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://pairlist5.pair.net/mailman/private/s10-ev/attachments/20210218/713bf96d/attachment-0001.html>

Hello,
I have a 1997 S10 EV, with the battery pack removed and the auxiliary battery removed.
I have a reading of 68 ohms between the positive auxiliary battery terminal and the controller case.
When I disconnect the APM terminal from the battery junction connector, the reading is infinite.
Is the 68 ohm reading normal? Thank you. -------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://pairlist5.pair.net/mailman/private/s10-ev/attachments/20210424/b905c0d6/attachment.htm>

I would like to install the auxiliary battery and run diagnostics, but am unsure if this is wise with the reading of 68 ohms.
I could disconnect the APM connector from the battery junction connector and then install the auxiliary battery. Any advice would be helpful. Thank you. On Saturday, April 24, 2021, 04:59:55 PM PDT, Good Boy <[email removed]> wrote: Hello,
I have a 1997 S10 EV, with the battery pack removed and the auxiliary battery removed.
I have a reading of 68 ohms between the positive auxiliary battery terminal and the controller case.
When I disconnect the APM terminal from the battery junction connector, the reading is infinite.
Is the 68 ohm reading normal? Thank you. -------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://pairlist5.pair.net/mailman/private/s10-ev/attachments/20210425/cc7b9829/attachment.htm>

First of all, I'm not an electronics specialist but I do understand the basics. Just take what I'm saying as a suggestion.?
I've sold my 1997 S10E but I did own it and keep it on the road for over 10 years.
To your question,I would be concerned if there was NOT an ohm reading between positive and ground. If you're familiar with the term, "Parasitic Loses", it's referring to the draining of the batteries while shut off and parked without being on the charger. Your radio draws a little just to maintain your station channels. The computer also draws a little. I think what you're reading is the sources that need power to maintain their memory.?So I'm also assuming you could get the same 68 ohm reading between the positive and negative battery terminals? (Without the battery installed, of course) If not, there may be an issue with chassis ground straps.?
Good luck, I kinda miss working on mine.Kevin McMullinBear, Delaware? -----Original Message-----
From: Good Boy via S10-EV <[email removed]>
To: theoldcars <[email removed]>; Steve Hawkins <[email removed]>
Cc: [email removed] <[email removed]>
Sent: Sat, Apr 24, 2021 8:08 pm
Subject: Re: [S10-EV] 68 Ohm Reading Between Positive Auxiliary Batter Terminal And Controller Case I would like to install the auxiliary battery and run diagnostics, but am unsure if this is wise with the reading of 68 ohms.
I could disconnect the APM connector from the battery junction connector and then install the auxiliary battery. Any advice would be helpful. Thank you. On Saturday, April 24, 2021, 04:59:55 PM PDT, Good Boy <[email removed]> wrote: Hello,
I have a 1997 S10 EV, with the battery pack removed and the auxiliary battery removed.
I have a reading of 68 ohms between the positive auxiliary battery terminal and the controller case.
When I disconnect the APM terminal from the battery junction connector, the reading is infinite.
Is the 68 ohm reading normal? Thank you. _______________________________________________
S10-EV mailing list
[email removed]
https://pairlist5.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://pairlist5.pair.net/mailman/private/s10-ev/attachments/20210425/7b9a18ba/attachment.htm>

Any advice would be helpful. Thank you. On Saturday, April 24, 2021, 05:08:09 PM PDT, Good Boy <[email removed]> wrote: I would like to install the auxiliary battery and run diagnostics, but am unsure if this is wise with the reading of 68 ohms.
I could disconnect the APM connector from the battery junction connector and then install the auxiliary battery. Any advice would be helpful. Thank you. On Saturday, April 24, 2021, 04:59:55 PM PDT, Good Boy <[email removed]> wrote: Hello,
I have a 1997 S10 EV, with the battery pack removed and the auxiliary battery removed.
I have a reading of 68 ohms between the positive auxiliary battery terminal and the controller case.
When I disconnect the APM terminal from the battery junction connector, the reading is infinite.
Is the 68 ohm reading normal? Thank you. -------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://pairlist5.pair.net/mailman/private/s10-ev/attachments/20210517/7bbdaf49/attachment.htm>