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Re: Lithium conversion.If finances allow I would strongly recommend looking at making your own modules from the new generation "pouch cells"
(1200 amp/cell discharge rate would give outstanding performance. Charge times are minutes not hours. Cycles are up around 15000. Density is greatly improved. Pack weight is lower. etc.)
I think that a range of 400 - 450 miles would be likely in an S10
WilliamPortland OR On Thursday, August 3, 2017 10:40 PM, "[email removed]" <[email removed]> wrote: Send S10-EV mailing list submissions to
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Today's Topics:   1. Lithium conversion ([email removed]) Just thinking out loud about a possible Lithium conversion.The Tesla battery approach seems to be a good answer, however, there are some issues with the S10E. Mainly the voltages sent to the S10E battery computer. An option here would be to convert your S10E into a back yard EV conversion by removing all of the control components and simply using the drive train. I don't want to attempt this or hack up a great truck. The Tesla battery uses 18650 Lithium cells in series and parallel. Nominal voltage of the 18650 is 3.7 volts. Fully charged is 4.2 volts. Totally dead is about 3 volts. So 3 in series, (12.6 volts fully charged), would cause problems for our computer and probably over charging to the point of exploding. However, 4 in series would be 14.8 volts, nominal and 16.8 volts fully charged. They could handle even a balancing charge. Our truck's charging system would limit the charge to about 13.8 volts which would also extend the cycle life of the 18650's. But, 4 in series would be depleted at 12 volts. Our trucks low limit is 10 volts, so we would have to pay attention to the total pack voltage and re-charge at something above 312 volts.Of course, most of these problems could be solved if a new battery and charging algorithm could be written into our BMS. I have no clue how to do that.The main motivator here is price and range. A 120 amp hour pack made up of 4,160- 18650's will fit in out battery box. The easy to find price of an 18650 is between $3.50 to $6.00 each. However, I know of a pallet of 20,000 cells that just sold for $1.00 each. These were genuine LG HG2 18650's at 3000mah. If I had the answers to the issues I've posted here I would have bought 5000 of them.Kevin McMullin   _______________________________________________
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Although I like the specs on these pouch cells, I haven't found a good price on them. After a quick search, It seems a 60 AH pack is between $7,000 to $21,000 using 3.2 V- 30 AH pouch cells at $52.00 each. To have a range of 400-450 miles, you're looking at 5 or 6 times that cost.
The weight of a 400 AH pack would be over 1800 lbs. The space for batteries in our battery box is about 87 cubic feet. the largest pouch cell pack you could fit is about 150 AH. And that's not allowing for space between cells for cooling, which is needed for safe use of these cells. I'm trying to work out a 60 AH pack of 18650 cells. To avoid trying to trick the BPCM to see correct voltages from the lithium's, which is difficult with 3.7 volt cells, I'm thinking of paralleling my truck bed mounted lithium pack along with the lead acids. I have found a deal on LG 18650, 20 cell packs with a BMS. About $1.00 per cell.
140 of these packs would give a 61.6 AH pack at 370 volts for about $2800.00.
Kevin
Bear, Delaware In a message dated 8/23/2017 4:07:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email removed] writes: Re: Lithium conversion
If finances allow I would strongly recommend looking at making your own modules from the new generation "pouch cells" (1200 amp/cell discharge rate would give outstanding performance. Charge times are minutes not hours. Cycles are up around 15000. Density is greatly improved. Pack weight is lower. etc.) I think that a range of 400 - 450 miles would be likely in an S10 William
Portland OR On Thursday, August 3, 2017 10:40 PM, "[email removed]" <[email removed]> wrote: Send S10-EV mailing list submissions to [email removed] (mailto:[email removed]) To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://pairlist5.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [email removed] (mailto:[email removed]) You can reach the person managing the list at [email removed] (mailto:[email removed]) When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of S10-EV digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Lithium conversion ([email removed] (mailto:[email removed]) ) Just thinking out loud about a possible Lithium conversion.
The Tesla battery approach seems to be a good answer, however, there are some issues with the S10E. Mainly the voltages sent to the S10E battery computer. An option here would be to convert your S10E into a back yard EV conversion by removing all of the control components and simply using the drive train. I don't want to attempt this or hack up a great truck. The Tesla battery uses 18650 Lithium cells in series and parallel. Nominal voltage of the 18650 is 3.7 volts. Fully charged is 4.2 volts. Totally dead is about 3 volts. So 3 in series, (12.6 volts fully charged), would cause problems for our computer and probably over charging to the point of exploding. However, 4 in series would be 14.8 volts, nominal and 16.8 volts fully charged. They could handle even a balancing charge. Our truck's charging system would limit the charge to about 13.8 volts which would also extend the cycle life of the 18650's. But, 4 in series would be depleted at 12 volts. Our trucks low limit is 10 volts, so we would have to pay attention to the total pack voltage and re-charge at something above 312 volts.
Of course, most of these problems could be solved if a new battery and charging algorithm could be written into our BMS. I have no clue how to do that.
The main motivator here is price and range. A 120 amp hour pack made up of 4,160- 18650's will fit in out battery box. The easy to find price of an 18650 is between $3.50 to $6.00 each. However, I know of a pallet of 20,000 cells that just sold for $1.00 each. These were genuine LG HG2 18650's at 3000mah. If I had the answers to the issues I've posted here I would have bought 5000 of them.
Kevin McMullin _______________________________________________
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Are the Leaf batteries pouch cells?  They appear to show a similar dimension.   You can buy the whole car for $7000 , of course it seems a shame to pull apart a perfectly good electric car for it's batteries.  
Range wise?   I dont think I want to be driving an s10 for 400 miles,  a good firm 100 would be fantastic.  With a 35 mile radius , the truck would be very useful to me.    If it sheds 500 pounds,  the payload comes up too.  
Eric L  On Thursday, August 24, 2017 7:58 AM, BJNKM--- via S10-EV <[email removed]> wrote: Although I like the specs on these pouch cells, I haven't found a good price on them. After a quick search, It seems a 60 AH pack is between $7,000 to $21,000 using 3.2 V- 30 AH pouch cells at $52.00 each. To have a range of 400-450 miles, you're looking at 5 or 6 times that cost.The weight of a 400 AH pack would be over 1800 lbs. The space for batteries in our battery box is about 87 cubic feet. the largest pouch cell pack you could fit is about 150 AH. And that's not allowing for space between cells for cooling, which is needed for safe use of these cells. I'm trying to work out a 60 AH pack of 18650 cells. To avoid trying to trick the BPCM to see correct voltages from the lithium's, which is difficult with 3.7 volt cells, I'm thinking of paralleling my truck bed mounted lithium pack along with the lead acids. I have found a deal on LG 18650, 20 cell packs with a BMS. About $1.00 per cell.140 of these packs would give a 61.6 AH pack at 370 volts for about $2800.00.KevinBear, Delaware In a message dated 8/23/2017 4:07:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email removed] writes: Re: Lithium conversion If finances allow I would strongly recommend looking at making your own modules from the new generation "pouch cells" (1200 amp/cell discharge rate would give outstanding performance. Charge times are minutes not hours. Cycles are up around 15000. Density is greatly improved. Pack weight is lower. etc.) I think that a range of 400 - 450 miles would be likely in an S10 William Portland OR On Thursday, August 3, 2017 10:40 PM, "[email removed]" <[email removed]> wrote: Send S10-EV mailing list submissions to     [email removed] To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit     https://pairlist5.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to     [email removed] You can reach the person managing the list at     [email removed] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of S10-EV digest..."
Today's Topics:   1. Lithium conversion ([email removed]) Just thinking out loud about a possible Lithium conversion. The Tesla battery approach seems to be a good answer, however, there are some issues with the S10E. Mainly the voltages sent to the S10E battery computer. An option here would be to convert your S10E into a back yard EV conversion by removing all of the control components and simply using the drive train. I don't want to attempt this or hack up a great truck.  The Tesla battery uses 18650 Lithium cells in series and parallel. Nominal voltage of the 18650 is 3.7 volts. Fully charged is 4.2 volts. Totally dead is about 3 volts. So 3 in series, (12.6 volts fully charged), would cause problems for our computer and probably over charging to the point of exploding. However, 4 in series would be 14.8 volts, nominal and 16.8 volts fully charged. They could handle even a balancing charge. Our truck's charging system would limit the charge to about 13.8 volts which would also extend the cycle life of the 18650's. But, 4 in series would be depleted at 12 volts. Our trucks low limit is 10 volts, so we would have to pay attention to the total pack voltage and re-charge at something above 312 volts. Of course, most of these problems could be solved if a new battery and charging algorithm could be written into our BMS. I have no clue how to do that. The main motivator here is price and range. A 120 amp hour pack made up of 4,160- 18650's will fit in out battery box. The easy to find price of an 18650 is between $3.50 to $6.00 each. However, I know of a pallet of 20,000 cells that just sold for $1.00 each. These were genuine LG HG2 18650's at 3000mah. If I had the answers to the issues I've posted here I would have bought 5000 of them. Kevin McMullin     _______________________________________________
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If the idea of paralleling 2- 60 AH packs works, you should get 100 mile range. In a message dated 8/24/2017 11:46:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email removed] writes: Are the Leaf batteries pouch cells? They appear to show a similar dimension. You can buy the whole car for $7000 , of course it seems a shame to pull apart a perfectly good electric car for it's batteries. Range wise? I dont think I want to be driving an s10 for 400 miles, a good firm 100 would be fantastic. With a 35 mile radius , the truck would be very useful to me. If it sheds 500 pounds, the payload comes up too. Eric L On Thursday, August 24, 2017 7:58 AM, BJNKM--- via S10-EV <[email removed]> wrote: Although I like the specs on these pouch cells, I haven't found a good price on them. After a quick search, It seems a 60 AH pack is between $7,000 to $21,000 using 3.2 V- 30 AH pouch cells at $52.00 each. To have a range of 400-450 miles, you're looking at 5 or 6 times that cost.
The weight of a 400 AH pack would be over 1800 lbs. The space for batteries in our battery box is about 87 cubic feet. the largest pouch cell pack you could fit is about 150 AH. And that's not allowing for space between cells for cooling, which is needed for safe use of these cells. I'm trying to work out a 60 AH pack of 18650 cells. To avoid trying to trick the BPCM to see correct voltages from the lithium's, which is difficult with 3.7 volt cells, I'm thinking of paralleling my truck bed mounted lithium pack along with the lead acids. I have found a deal on LG 18650, 20 cell packs with a BMS. About $1.00 per cell.
140 of these packs would give a 61.6 AH pack at 370 volts for about $2800.00.
Kevin
Bear, Delaware In a message dated 8/23/2017 4:07:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email removed] writes: Re: Lithium conversion
If finances allow I would strongly recommend looking at making your own modules from the new generation "pouch cells" (1200 amp/cell discharge rate would give outstanding performance. Charge times are minutes not hours. Cycles are up around 15000. Density is greatly improved. Pack weight is lower. etc.) I think that a range of 400 - 450 miles would be likely in an S10 William
Portland OR On Thursday, August 3, 2017 10:40 PM, "[email removed]" <[email removed]> wrote: Send S10-EV mailing list submissions to [email removed] (mailto:[email removed]) To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://pairlist5.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [email removed] (mailto:[email removed]) You can reach the person managing the list at [email removed] (mailto:[email removed]) When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of S10-EV digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Lithium conversion ([email removed] (mailto:[email removed]) ) Just thinking out loud about a possible Lithium conversion.
The Tesla battery approach seems to be a good answer, however, there are some issues with the S10E. Mainly the voltages sent to the S10E battery computer. An option here would be to convert your S10E into a back yard EV conversion by removing all of the control components and simply using the drive train. I don't want to attempt this or hack up a great truck. The Tesla battery uses 18650 Lithium cells in series and parallel. Nominal voltage of the 18650 is 3.7 volts. Fully charged is 4.2 volts. Totally dead is about 3 volts. So 3 in series, (12.6 volts fully charged), would cause problems for our computer and probably over charging to the point of e
xploding. However, 4 in series would be 14.8 volts, nominal and 16.8 volts fully charged. They could handle even a balancing charge. Our truck's charging system would limit the charge to about 13.8 volts which would also extend the cycle life of the 18650's. But, 4 in series would be depleted at 12 volts. Our trucks low limit is 10 volts, so we would have to pay attention to the total pack voltage and re-charge at something above 312 volts.
Of course, most of these problems could be solved if a new battery and charging algorithm could be written into our BMS. I have no clue how to do that.
The main motivator here is price and range. A 120 amp hour pack made up of 4,160- 18650's will fit in out battery box. The easy to find price of an 18650 is between $3.50 to $6.00 each. However, I know of a pallet of 20,000 cells that just sold for $1.00 each. These were genuine LG HG2 18650's at 3000mah. If I had the answers to the issues I've posted here I would have bought 5000 of them.
Kevin McMullin _______________________________________________
S10-EV mailing list
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