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I would imagine that the reason for the high "self discharge" rate of the pack can be a stuck pre-charge relay. On Wednesday, November 6, 2013 10:00 AM, Niel Nielsen <[email removed]> wrote: I have a '98 native NiMH.? Over the years I have occasionally had to leave it sit for a few weeks or more without charging (vacation, down for maintenance, etc), and I also noticed the very high self-discharge rate.? It seemed that it would loose most of its charge in about two weeks (modules in the low 13V range).? (This is my observation, I don't have detailed measurements).? I assumed it was internal self-discharge in the NiMH Modules. I recently discovered that if you disconnect the HV disconnect plug and disconnect the 12V auxiliary battery, the supposed self-discharge drops to a fraction of the rate observed when the truck is left in the key-off ready state.? For example, after a full charge, and then disconnecting +12 and HV as mentioned, after 2-1/2 weeks the module voltages are still in the 14.2 V to 14.3V range.? This makes me think that the self-discharge of the NiMH modules is really not that bad, and that there are other things on the truck (like all the computers and the periodic refreshing of? the +12 battery) that is the major source of the drain. Has anyone else tried this? If the others are like mine, then if you need to store? the vehicle without charging for a few weeks (I don't know the limit on this), then be sure to disconnect the HV disconnect plug and the 12V aux battery. Thanks, Niel
Chicago _______________________________________________
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Self discharge depends a lot on temperature If you fully charge a pack and it warms up to eighty plus degrees and don't drive it. You will lose capacity quickly. The tray retains heat for quite a long time. The NiMH modules also produce a little heat as they self discharge. The 12 volt battery will go dead or very near it in a couple of weeks. Even if you disconnect the High voltage plug. The BPCM continues to pull power out of the pack. I have had packs opened up off to the side of the vehicle and you can actually hear it. If the pack is cool say 50 degrees or less it will hold a charge for 4 to 6 weeks. However NiMH batteries don't do very well sitting around. Its really best to use them everyday 40% to 80% and fully charge them when your balancing or conditioning the pack. Which should be done once a month. Don Blazer In a message dated 11/6/2013 1:00:36 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, [email removed] writes: I have a '98 native NiMH. Over the years I have occasionally had to leave it sit for a few weeks or more without charging (vacation, down for maintenance, etc), and I also noticed the very high self-discharge rate. It seemed that it would loose most of its charge in about two weeks (modules in the low 13V range). (This is my observation, I don't have detailed measurements). I assumed it was internal self-discharge in the NiMH Modules. I recently discovered that if you disconnect the HV disconnect plug and disconnect the 12V auxiliary battery, the supposed self-discharge drops to a fraction of the rate observed when the truck is left in the key-off ready state. For example, after a full charge, and then disconnecting +12 and HV as mentioned, after 2-1/2 weeks the module voltages are still in the 14.2 V to 14.3V range. This makes me think that the self-discharge of the NiMH modules is really not that bad, and that there are other things on the truck (like all the computers and the periodic refreshing of the +12 battery) that is the major source of the drain. Has anyone else tried this? If the others are like mine, then if you need to store the vehicle without charging for a few weeks (I don't know the limit on this), then be sure to disconnect the HV disconnect plug and the 12V aux battery. Thanks, Niel
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Interesting theory Nikolay, but I don't know if it really holds water. Neil's observation is very valuable and it's raised my curiosity. I guess it is all worth checking out next time I'm inside the pack with a multimeter. Having just studied the wiring diagram, I can see that removing the underhood HV disable jumper plug opens (1) the grounding wire for the coil to the negative side main contactor, which is also the negative leg of the precharge circuit. The positive side connection is handled only by the automatic disconnect module (ADM) which is itself powered by the HV Battery Pack directly (not 12V), so it is permanently on. If the precharge relay inside the ADM is indeed stuck (actually I think it could be a power transistor that initiates the connection), it would require that the negative main contactor is also welded shut to complete the circuit. However each of the main contactors have a feedback "monitor lead" to know their states definitively, and I presume the ADM's logic would not allow operation of the system if the contactor got welded. When the underhood disable is pulled it also breaks (2) a second connection which is a grounding connection from the ADM to the midpoint pack voltage. This trips the ADM's enable for ground fault detection, and powers down the main relays. {Something to be tested, as it might be a soft way to power down the relays remotely}. Powering it down however also makes the BPCM loose its memory as I seem to recall (need to test again), so then you get the charge gage swinging around wildly until it is automatically reset at the end of a full charge cycle. Turning off 12 volts at the service battery however does the same too, the BPCM loses its keep alive memory.
The interesting thing I found re-reading the manual (page 773 &774) is that the main relays are normally powered ON, even when the key is OFF! I am not sure why this is done, perhaps for continual monitoring of the ground faults that might develop through the rest of the HV harness into the engine compartment.
I've always noted a substantial spark when making the final HV connection whilst assembling the pack, presuming it was capacitance inside the ADM and/or BPCM as they got powered up with 400 volts. Perhaps a large chuck of it is really the current draw needed to keep the HV contactors pulled in! Next time I'll be checking the quiescent current draw through the various elements. ( Luckily I have the harness extensions and can run the vehicle on the lift, pack open and sitting next to it ) I suspect the BPCM and ADM together may draw quite a bit too, and they perhaps don't enter a proper sleep mode... Anyway, keeping the main contactors on continually is certainly a bizarre feature. This then probably manifests as the majority of the "self-discharge" being seen, and would support Niel's keen observation. If the S10 EV is left plugged in, it will automatically cycle the charger about every day to keep topping off. I believe this is controlled by the HTCM 24 hour cycle "wake-up". I don't like keeping it plugged in. Also you can hear some contactor cycling briefly every few hours monitoring the pack (fairly loud click), and there is the low level constant high pitch hum from under the car if you listen carefully. I have not traced which module emits the sound, BPCM or ADM, HTCM ? or which relay is doing the loud clicking every few hours, but I think it is on the firewall rather than inside the battery box. Be nice to compare notes with others on what is truely "normal". These are all parasitic losses adding up over time. It would be good to install a "sleep switch" but one that keeps the BPCM memory alive. Something to ponder over and test. The RAV4 EV is different, and will never charge until you pull the paddle and put it back in, no matter how long it sits. Addressing another topic that has come up indirectly in some recent posts,,,, let me give people lurking a strong hint: Owning / driving an old electric vehicle is not a way to save money, rather the extreme opposite. It will be the most expensive toy you either can, or cannot afford. Go buy a compact used car if you desire cheap and reliable transportation. email: [email removed]<mailto:[email removed]> From: [email removed] [mailto:[email removed]] On Behalf Of Nikolay Shishkov
Sent: November-06-13 5:13 PM
To: Niel Nielsen; [email removed]
Subject: Re: [S10-EV] NiMH Self Discharge Rate I would imagine that the reason for the high "self discharge" rate of the pack can be a stuck pre-charge relay. On Wednesday, November 6, 2013 10:00 AM, Niel Nielsen <[email removed]<mailto:[email removed]>> wrote:
I have a '98 native NiMH. Over the years I have occasionally had to leave it sit for a few weeks or more without charging (vacation, down for maintenance, etc), and I also noticed the very high self-discharge rate. It seemed that it would loose most of its charge in about two weeks (modules in the low 13V range). (This is my observation, I don't have detailed measurements). I assumed it was internal self-discharge in the NiMH Modules. I recently discovered that if you disconnect the HV disconnect plug and disconnect the 12V auxiliary battery, the supposed self-discharge drops to a fraction of the rate observed when the truck is left in the key-off ready state. For example, after a full charge, and then disconnecting +12 and HV as mentioned, after 2-1/2 weeks the module voltages are still in the 14.2 V to 14.3V range. This makes me think that the self-discharge of the NiMH modules is really not that bad, and that there are other things on the truck (like all the computers and the periodic refreshing of the +12 battery) that is the major source of the drain. Has anyone else tried this? If the others are like mine, then if you need to store the vehicle without charging for a few weeks (I don't know the limit on this), then be sure to disconnect the HV disconnect plug and the 12V aux battery. Thanks, Niel
Chicago _______________________________________________
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It was just a theory - one of my RAV4 EVs had an issue with main contactors, where sometimes the contactors will stay closed. Sometimes they will open. This may be due to external load that should not be there while the contactor is opening...I was not able to confirm this.
I don't own S10ev, so this is pure speculation from my side. On Thursday, November 7, 2013 4:56 AM, Greg Rohrauer <[email removed]> wrote: Interesting theory Nikolay, but I don?t know if it really holds water. Neil?s observation is very valuable and it?s raised my curiosity. I guess it is all worth checking out next time I?m inside the pack with a multimeter. Having just studied the wiring diagram, I can see that removing the underhood HV disable jumper plug opens (1) the grounding wire for the coil to the negative side main contactor, which is also the negative leg of the precharge circuit. The positive side connection is handled only by the automatic disconnect module (ADM) which is itself powered by the HV Battery Pack ?directly (not 12V), so it is permanently on. If the precharge relay inside the ADM is indeed stuck (actually I think it could be a power transistor that initiates the connection), it would require that the negative main contactor is also welded shut to complete the circuit. However each of the main contactors have a feedback ?monitor lead? to know their states definitively, and I presume the ADM?s logic would? not allow operation of the system if the contactor got welded. When the underhood disable is pulled it also breaks (2) a second connection which is a grounding connection from the ADM ?to the midpoint pack voltage. This trips the ADM?s enable for ground fault detection, and powers down the main relays. {Something to be tested, as it might be a soft way to power down the relays remotely}. Powering it down however also makes the BPCM loose its memory as I seem to recall (need to test again), so then you get the charge gage swinging around wildly until it is automatically reset at the end of a full charge cycle. Turning off 12 volts at the service battery however does the same too, the BPCM loses its keep alive memory.
The interesting thing I found re-reading the manual ?(page 773 &774) is that the main relays are normally powered ON, even when the key is OFF! I am not sure why this is done, perhaps for continual monitoring of the ground faults that might develop through the rest of the HV harness into the engine compartment.
I?ve always noted a substantial spark when making the final HV connection whilst assembling the pack, ?presuming it was capacitance inside the ADM and/or ?BPCM as they got powered up with 400 volts. ?Perhaps a large chuck of it is really the current draw needed to keep the HV contactors pulled in! Next time I?ll be checking the quiescent current draw through the various elements. ( Luckily I have the harness extensions and can run the vehicle on the lift, ?pack open and sitting next to it ) ?I suspect the BPCM and ADM together may draw quite a bit too, and they perhaps don?t enter a proper sleep mode? Anyway, keeping the main contactors on continually is certainly a bizarre feature. ?This then probably manifests as the majority of the ?self-discharge? being seen, and would support Niel?s keen observation.
?
If the S10 EV is left plugged in, it will automatically cycle the charger about every day to keep topping off. I believe this is controlled by the HTCM ?24 hour cycle ?wake-up?. I don?t like keeping it plugged in. Also you can hear some contactor cycling briefly every few hours monitoring the pack (fairly loud click), and there is the low level constant ?high pitch hum from under the car if you listen carefully. I have not traced which module emits the sound, BPCM or ADM, HTCM ? or which relay is doing the loud clicking every few hours, but I think it is on the firewall rather than inside the battery box. Be nice to compare notes with others on what is truely ?normal?. These are all parasitic losses adding up over time. It would be good to install a ?sleep switch? but one that keeps the BPCM memory alive. Something to ponder over and test.
?
The RAV4 EV is different, and will never charge until you pull the paddle and put it back in, no matter how long it sits.
?
Addressing another topic that has come up indirectly in some recent posts,,,, let me give people lurking a strong hint: Owning / driving an old electric vehicle is not a way to save money, rather the extreme opposite. It will be the most expensive toy you either can, or cannot afford. ?Go buy a compact used car if you desire cheap and reliable transportation.
? email: [email removed]
?
From:[email removed] [mailto:[email removed]] On Behalf Of Nikolay Shishkov
Sent: November-06-13 5:13 PM
To: Niel Nielsen; [email removed]
Subject: Re: [S10-EV] NiMH Self Discharge Rate
?
I would imagine that the reason for the high "self discharge" rate of the pack can be a stuck pre-charge relay.
?
?
On Wednesday, November 6, 2013 10:00 AM, Niel Nielsen <[email removed]> wrote:
I have a '98 native NiMH.? Over the years I have occasionally had to leave it sit for a few weeks or more without charging (vacation, down for maintenance, etc), and I also noticed the very high self-discharge rate.? It seemed that it would loose most of its charge in about two weeks (modules in the low 13V range).? (This is my observation, I don't have detailed measurements).? I assumed it was internal self-discharge in the NiMH Modules. I recently discovered that if you disconnect the HV disconnect plug and disconnect the 12V auxiliary battery, the supposed self-discharge drops to a fraction of the rate observed when the truck is left in the key-off ready state.? For example, after a full charge, and then disconnecting +12 and HV as mentioned, after 2-1/2 weeks the module voltages are still in the 14.2 V to 14.3V range.? This makes me think that the self-discharge of the NiMH modules is really not that bad, and that there are other things on the truck (like all the computers and the periodic refreshing of? the +12 battery) that is the major source of the drain. Has anyone else tried this? If the others are like mine, then if you need to store? the vehicle without charging for a few weeks (I don't know the limit on this), then be sure to disconnect the HV disconnect plug and the 12V aux battery. Thanks, Niel
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Since the group is checking in I have a question. We have installed a lithium conversion in Rayan's S10-EV. All 26 banks are reading 13.32vdc to 13.34vdc and all temp sensors are reading ambient. We replaced the battery blower due to a bearing failure and board failure on the previous blower. The truck will not complete the wake up process and the blower will not run when turned on manually with the tech2. Suggestions of what to try next? Thanks, Richard Hatfield
Lightning Motorcycle On Nov 6, 2013, at 7:54 PM, [email removed] wrote: > Self discharge depends a lot on temperature
> > If you fully charge a pack and it warms up to eighty plus degrees and don't drive it. You will lose capacity quickly. The tray retains heat for quite a long time. The NiMH modules also produce a little heat as they self discharge.
> > The 12 volt battery will go dead or very near it in a couple of weeks.
> > Even if you disconnect the High voltage plug. The BPCM continues to pull power out of the pack. I have had packs opened up off to the side of the vehicle and you can actually hear it.
> > If the pack is cool say 50 degrees or less it will hold a charge for 4 to 6 weeks.
> > However NiMH batteries don't do very well sitting around. Its really best to use them everyday 40% to 80% and fully charge them when your balancing or conditioning the pack. Which should be done once a month.
> > Don Blazer
> > In a message dated 11/6/2013 1:00:36 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, [email removed] writes:
> I have a '98 native NiMH. Over the years I have occasionally had to leave it sit for a few weeks or more without charging (vacation, down for maintenance, etc), and I also noticed the very high self-discharge rate. It seemed that it would loose most of its charge in about two weeks (modules in the low 13V range). (This is my observation, I don't have detailed measurements). I assumed it was internal self-discharge in the NiMH Modules.
> > I recently discovered that if you disconnect the HV disconnect plug and disconnect the 12V auxiliary battery, the supposed self-discharge drops to a fraction of the rate observed when the truck is left in the key-off ready state. For example, after a full charge, and then disconnecting +12 and HV as mentioned, after 2-1/2 weeks the module voltages are still in the 14.2 V to 14.3V range. This makes me think that the self-discharge of the NiMH modules is really not that bad, and that there are other things on the truck (like all the computers and the periodic refreshing of the +12 battery) that is the major source of the drain.
> > Has anyone else tried this?
> > If the others are like mine, then if you need to store the vehicle without charging for a few weeks (I don't know the limit on this), then be sure to disconnect the HV disconnect plug and the 12V aux battery.
> > Thanks,
> > Niel
> Chicago
> > _______________________________________________
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Hello Richard There are no DTC codes? If not then try disconnecting the accessory battery then the high voltage disconnect plug. Wait a few minutes then connect the high voltage disconnect plug then the accessory battery. It has to be done in this order. Sometimes you need to repeat this a couple of times. It does not correct all problems but its easy and the first thing you should try. Don Blazer In a message dated 11/7/2013 7:27:26 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, [email removed] writes: Since the group is checking in I have a question. We have installed a lithium conversion in Rayan's S10-EV. All 26 banks are reading 13.32vdc to 13.34vdc and all temp sensors are reading ambient. We replaced the battery blower due to a bearing failure and board failure on the previous blower. The truck will not complete the wake up process and the blower will not run when turned on manually with the tech2. Suggestions of what to try next? Thanks, Richard Hatfield Lightning Motorcycle On Nov 6, 2013, at 7:54 PM, [email removed] (mailto:[email removed]) wrote: Self discharge depends a lot on temperature If you fully charge a pack and it warms up to eighty plus degrees and don't drive it. You will lose capacity quickly. The tray retains heat for quite a long time. The NiMH modules also produce a little heat as they self discharge. The 12 volt battery will go dead or very near it in a couple of weeks. Even if you disconnect the High voltage plug. The BPCM continues to pull power out of the pack. I have had packs opened up off to the side of the vehicle and you can actually hear it. If the pack is cool say 50 degrees or less it will hold a charge for 4 to 6 weeks. However NiMH batteries don't do very well sitting around. Its really best to use them everyday 40% to 80% and fully charge them when your balancing or conditioning the pack. Which should be done once a month. Don Blazer In a message dated 11/6/2013 1:00:36 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, [email removed] (mailto:[email removed]) writes: I have a '98 native NiMH. Over the years I have occasionally had to leave it sit for a few weeks or more without charging (vacation, down for maintenance, etc), and I also noticed the very high self-discharge rate. It seemed that it would loose most of its charge in about two weeks (modules in the low 13V range). (This is my observation, I don't have detailed measurements). I assumed it was internal self-discharge in the NiMH Modules. I recently discovered that if you disconnect the HV disconnect plug and disconnect the 12V auxiliary battery, the supposed self-discharge drops to a fraction of the rate observed when the truck is left in the key-off ready state. For example, after a full charge, and then disconnecting +12 and HV as mentioned, after 2-1/2 weeks the module voltages are still in the 14.2 V to 14.3V range. This makes me think that the self-discharge of the NiMH modules is really not that bad, and that there are other things on the truck (like all the computers and the periodic refreshing of the +12 battery) that is the major source of the drain. Has anyone else tried this? If the others are like mine, then if you need to store the vehicle without charging for a few weeks (I don't know the limit on this), then be sure to disconnect the HV disconnect plug and the 12V aux battery. Thanks, Niel
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Hi, Richard-- Check the power supply voltage (stick a pin through the wire) right at the blower. I think it's the red wire. The other two are ground and an on/off command voltage. It should read about 12 volts when the blower is commanded OFF and slightly lower when commanded ON. In my case, the voltage dropped to, like, 2 volts, which wouldn't turn the motor. We traced the wires (using the GM Electrical Wiring Diagrams in the Manual) to a connector up in that nest in front of the driver-side firewall and found a 10-volt drop across one particular pin on one particular connector. Bridging the connector made the blower run. Clearly, that pin is undersized for the amount of current carried for the blower. A similar connector/pin undersizement and eventual burnout is for the condenser fan, up near the radiator. It's easier to find, though, because the wires are more visible. --Gil On Nov 7, 2013, at 7:27 AM, Richard Hatfield wrote: > Since the group is checking in I have a question. We have installed a lithium conversion in Rayan's S10-EV. All 26 banks are reading 13.32vdc to 13.34vdc and all temp sensors are reading ambient. We replaced the battery blower due to a bearing failure and board failure on the previous blower. The truck will not complete the wake up process and the blower will not run when turned on manually with the tech2. Suggestions of what to try next?
> > Thanks,
> > Richard Hatfield
> Lightning Motorcycle
> > > On Nov 6, 2013, at 7:54 PM, [email removed] wrote:
> >> Self discharge depends a lot on temperature
>> >> If you fully charge a pack and it warms up to eighty plus degrees and don't drive it. You will lose capacity quickly. The tray retains heat for quite a long time. The NiMH modules also produce a little heat as they self discharge.
>> >> The 12 volt battery will go dead or very near it in a couple of weeks.
>> >> Even if you disconnect the High voltage plug. The BPCM continues to pull power out of the pack. I have had packs opened up off to the side of the vehicle and you can actually hear it.
>> >> If the pack is cool say 50 degrees or less it will hold a charge for 4 to 6 weeks.
>> >> However NiMH batteries don't do very well sitting around. Its really best to use them everyday 40% to 80% and fully charge them when your balancing or conditioning the pack. Which should be done once a month.
>> >> Don Blazer
>> >> In a message dated 11/6/2013 1:00:36 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, [email removed] writes:
>> I have a '98 native NiMH. Over the years I have occasionally had to leave it sit for a few weeks or more without charging (vacation, down for maintenance, etc), and I also noticed the very high self-discharge rate. It seemed that it would loose most of its charge in about two weeks (modules in the low 13V range). (This is my observation, I don't have detailed measurements). I assumed it was internal self-discharge in the NiMH Modules.
>> >> I recently discovered that if you disconnect the HV disconnect plug and disconnect the 12V auxiliary battery, the supposed self-discharge drops to a fraction of the rate observed when the truck is left in the key-off ready state. For example, after a full charge, and then disconnecting +12 and HV as mentioned, after 2-1/2 weeks the module voltages are still in the 14.2 V to 14.3V range. This makes me think that the self-discharge of the NiMH modules is really not that bad, and that there are other things on the truck (like all the computers and the periodic refreshing of the +12 battery) that is the major source of the drain.
>> >> Has anyone else tried this?
>> >> If the others are like mine, then if you need to store the vehicle without charging for a few weeks (I don't know the limit on this), then be sure to disconnect the HV disconnect plug and the 12V aux battery.
>> >> Thanks,
>> >> Niel
>> Chicago
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> S10-EV mailing list
>> [email removed]
>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
> _______________________________________________
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Gil was that a 1997? If I recall correctly that did come up on the 1997 but not the 1998. Don In a message dated 11/7/2013 10:13:21 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, [email removed] writes: Hi, Richard-- Check the power supply voltage (stick a pin through the wire) right at the blower. I think it's the red wire. The other two are ground and an on/off command voltage. It should read about 12 volts when the blower is commanded OFF and slightly lower when commanded ON. In my case, the voltage dropped to, like, 2 volts, which wouldn't turn the motor. We traced the wires (using the GM Electrical Wiring Diagrams in the Manual) to a connector up in that nest in front of the driver-side firewall and found a 10-volt drop across one particular pin on one particular connector. Bridging the connector made the blower run. Clearly, that pin is undersized for the amount of current carried for the blower. A similar connector/pin undersizement and eventual burnout is for the condenser fan, up near the radiator. It's easier to find, though, because the wires are more visible. --Gil On Nov 7, 2013, at 7:27 AM, Richard Hatfield wrote: Since the group is checking in I have a question. We have installed a lithium conversion in Rayan's S10-EV. All 26 banks are reading 13.32vdc to 13.34vdc and all temp sensors are reading ambient. We replaced the battery blower due to a bearing failure and board failure on the previous blower. The truck will not complete the wake up process and the blower will not run when turned on manually with the tech2. Suggestions of what to try next? Thanks, Richard Hatfield Lightning Motorcycle On Nov 6, 2013, at 7:54 PM, [email removed] (mailto:[email removed]) wrote: Self discharge depends a lot on temperature If you fully charge a pack and it warms up to eighty plus degrees and don't drive it. You will lose capacity quickly. The tray retains heat for quite a long time. The NiMH modules also produce a little heat as they self discharge. The 12 volt battery will go dead or very near it in a couple of weeks. Even if you disconnect the High voltage plug. The BPCM continues to pull power out of the pack. I have had packs opened up off to the side of the vehicle and you can actually hear it. If the pack is cool say 50 degrees or less it will hold a charge for 4 to 6 weeks. However NiMH batteries don't do very well sitting around. Its really best to use them everyday 40% to 80% and fully charge them when your balancing or conditioning the pack. Which should be done once a month. Don Blazer In a message dated 11/6/2013 1:00:36 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, [email removed] (mailto:[email removed]) writes: I have a '98 native NiMH. Over the years I have occasionally had to leave it sit for a few weeks or more without charging (vacation, down for maintenance, etc), and I also noticed the very high self-discharge rate. It seemed that it would loose most of its charge in about two weeks (modules in the low 13V range). (This is my observation, I don't have detailed measurements). I assumed it was internal self-discharge in the NiMH Modules. I recently discovered that if you disconnect the HV disconnect plug and disconnect the 12V auxiliary battery, the supposed self-discharge drops to a fraction of the rate observed when the truck is left in the key-off ready state. For example, after a full charge, and then disconnecting +12 and HV as mentioned, after 2-1/2 weeks the module voltages are still in the 14.2 V to 14.3V range. This makes me think that the self-discharge of the NiMH modules is really not that bad, and that there are other things on the truck (like all the computers and the periodic refreshing of the +12 battery) that is the major source of the drain. Has anyone else tried this? If the others are like mine, then if you need to store the vehicle without charging for a few weeks (I don't know the limit on this), then be sure to disconnect the HV disconnect plug and the 12V aux battery. Thanks, Niel
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Thank you for your help. We have 4 DTCs. One is pack airflow, the other three if i remember correctly are related to startup. I am at the SEMA show today and don't have access to the codes. I will forward them when I return. Richard Hatfield
Lightning Motorcycle On Nov 7, 2013, at 10:16 AM, [email removed] wrote: > Gil was that a 1997? If I recall correctly that did come up on the 1997 but not the 1998.
> > Don
> > In a message dated 11/7/2013 10:13:21 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, [email removed] writes:
> Hi, Richard--
> > Check the power supply voltage (stick a pin through the wire) right at the blower. I think it's the red wire. The other two are ground and an on/off command voltage. It should read about 12 volts when the blower is commanded OFF and slightly lower when commanded ON. > > In my case, the voltage dropped to, like, 2 volts, which wouldn't turn the motor. We traced the wires (using the GM Electrical Wiring Diagrams in the Manual) to a connector up in that nest in front of the driver-side firewall and found a 10-volt drop across one particular pin on one particular connector. Bridging the connector made the blower run.
> > Clearly, that pin is undersized for the amount of current carried for the blower. A similar connector/pin undersizement and eventual burnout is for the condenser fan, up near the radiator. It's easier to find, though, because the wires are more visible.
> > --Gil
> > On Nov 7, 2013, at 7:27 AM, Richard Hatfield wrote:
> >> Since the group is checking in I have a question. We have installed a lithium conversion in Rayan's S10-EV. All 26 banks are reading 13.32vdc to 13.34vdc and all temp sensors are reading ambient. We replaced the battery blower due to a bearing failure and board failure on the previous blower. The truck will not complete the wake up process and the blower will not run when turned on manually with the tech2. Suggestions of what to try next?
>> >> Thanks,
>> >> Richard Hatfield
>> Lightning Motorcycle
>> >> >> On Nov 6, 2013, at 7:54 PM, [email removed] wrote:
>> >>> Self discharge depends a lot on temperature
>>> >>> If you fully charge a pack and it warms up to eighty plus degrees and don't drive it. You will lose capacity quickly. The tray retains heat for quite a long time. The NiMH modules also produce a little heat as they self discharge.
>>> >>> The 12 volt battery will go dead or very near it in a couple of weeks.
>>> >>> Even if you disconnect the High voltage plug. The BPCM continues to pull power out of the pack. I have had packs opened up off to the side of the vehicle and you can actually hear it.
>>> >>> If the pack is cool say 50 degrees or less it will hold a charge for 4 to 6 weeks.
>>> >>> However NiMH batteries don't do very well sitting around. Its really best to use them everyday 40% to 80% and fully charge them when your balancing or conditioning the pack. Which should be done once a month.
>>> >>> Don Blazer
>>> >>> In a message dated 11/6/2013 1:00:36 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, [email removed] writes:
>>> I have a '98 native NiMH. Over the years I have occasionally had to leave it sit for a few weeks or more without charging (vacation, down for maintenance, etc), and I also noticed the very high self-discharge rate. It seemed that it would loose most of its charge in about two weeks (modules in the low 13V range). (This is my observation, I don't have detailed measurements). I assumed it was internal self-discharge in the NiMH Modules.
>>> >>> I recently discovered that if you disconnect the HV disconnect plug and disconnect the 12V auxiliary battery, the supposed self-discharge drops to a fraction of the rate observed when the truck is left in the key-off ready state. For example, after a full charge, and then disconnecting +12 and HV as mentioned, after 2-1/2 weeks the module voltages are still in the 14.2 V to 14.3V range. This makes me think that the self-discharge of the NiMH modules is really not that bad, and that there are other things on the truck (like all the computers and the periodic refreshing of the +12 battery) that is the major source of the drain.
>>> >>> Has anyone else tried this?
>>> >>> If the others are like mine, then if you need to store the vehicle without charging for a few weeks (I don't know the limit on this), then be sure to disconnect the HV disconnect plug and the 12V aux battery.
>>> >>> Thanks,
>>> >>> Niel
>>> Chicago
>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> S10-EV mailing list
>>> [email removed]
>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
>> _______________________________________________
>> S10-EV mailing list
>> [email removed]
>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
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Huh. So it turns out that to breathe life back into this list, somebody just needs to post something. ;) The S10 list hasn?t seen this much action in? well, maybe ever! Carry on. Neat to see! -= Darell =- <http://EVnut.com> http://EVnut.com -------------- next part --------------
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Hi, Don-- Indeed that was an evBones NiMH conversion, so a 1997, I believe, the very one which I traded to Richard Hatfield himself for his 2006 home-brew-plug-in Prius (with an added 10 kWh of aftermarket Lithiums) with which I am still quite happy. I'm glad to hear that the 1998s didn't have this problem. Larger connector pins, was that the fix? --Gil On Nov 7, 2013, at 10:16 AM, [email removed] wrote: > Gil was that a 1997? If I recall correctly that did come up on the 1997 but not the 1998.
> > Don
> > In a message dated 11/7/2013 10:13:21 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, [email removed] writes:
> Hi, Richard--
> > Check the power supply voltage (stick a pin through the wire) right at the blower. I think it's the red wire. The other two are ground and an on/off command voltage. It should read about 12 volts when the blower is commanded OFF and slightly lower when commanded ON. > > In my case, the voltage dropped to, like, 2 volts, which wouldn't turn the motor. We traced the wires (using the GM Electrical Wiring Diagrams in the Manual) to a connector up in that nest in front of the driver-side firewall and found a 10-volt drop across one particular pin on one particular connector. Bridging the connector made the blower run.
> > Clearly, that pin is undersized for the amount of current carried for the blower. A similar connector/pin undersizement and eventual burnout is for the condenser fan, up near the radiator. It's easier to find, though, because the wires are more visible.
> > --Gil
> > On Nov 7, 2013, at 7:27 AM, Richard Hatfield wrote:
> >> Since the group is checking in I have a question. We have installed a lithium conversion in Rayan's S10-EV. All 26 banks are reading 13.32vdc to 13.34vdc and all temp sensors are reading ambient. We replaced the battery blower due to a bearing failure and board failure on the previous blower. The truck will not complete the wake up process and the blower will not run when turned on manually with the tech2. Suggestions of what to try next?
>> >> Thanks,
>> >> Richard Hatfield
>> Lightning Motorcycle
>> >> >> On Nov 6, 2013, at 7:54 PM, [email removed] wrote:
>> >>> Self discharge depends a lot on temperature
>>> >>> If you fully charge a pack and it warms up to eighty plus degrees and don't drive it. You will lose capacity quickly. The tray retains heat for quite a long time. The NiMH modules also produce a little heat as they self discharge.
>>> >>> The 12 volt battery will go dead or very near it in a couple of weeks.
>>> >>> Even if you disconnect the High voltage plug. The BPCM continues to pull power out of the pack. I have had packs opened up off to the side of the vehicle and you can actually hear it.
>>> >>> If the pack is cool say 50 degrees or less it will hold a charge for 4 to 6 weeks.
>>> >>> However NiMH batteries don't do very well sitting around. Its really best to use them everyday 40% to 80% and fully charge them when your balancing or conditioning the pack. Which should be done once a month.
>>> >>> Don Blazer
>>> >>> In a message dated 11/6/2013 1:00:36 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, [email removed] writes:
>>> I have a '98 native NiMH. Over the years I have occasionally had to leave it sit for a few weeks or more without charging (vacation, down for maintenance, etc), and I also noticed the very high self-discharge rate. It seemed that it would loose most of its charge in about two weeks (modules in the low 13V range). (This is my observation, I don't have detailed measurements). I assumed it was internal self-discharge in the NiMH Modules.
>>> >>> I recently discovered that if you disconnect the HV disconnect plug and disconnect the 12V auxiliary battery, the supposed self-discharge drops to a fraction of the rate observed when the truck is left in the key-off ready state. For example, after a full charge, and then disconnecting +12 and HV as mentioned, after 2-1/2 weeks the module voltages are still in the 14.2 V to 14.3V range. This makes me think that the self-discharge of the NiMH modules is really not that bad, and that there are other things on the truck (like all the computers and the periodic refreshing of the +12 battery) that is the major source of the drain.
>>> >>> Has anyone else tried this?
>>> >>> If the others are like mine, then if you need to store the vehicle without charging for a few weeks (I don't know the limit on this), then be sure to disconnect the HV disconnect plug and the 12V aux battery.
>>> >>> Thanks,
>>> >>> Niel
>>> Chicago
>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> S10-EV mailing list
>>> [email removed]
>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
>> _______________________________________________
>> S10-EV mailing list
>> [email removed]
>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
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Richard:
I?m assuming you have the service manuals & scan tool? having attempted this battery swap. The pack voltage ought be fine according to what you indicate. I?d clear everything and start fresh, seeing which codes reappear.
I?d be most worried about DTC 280, as it controls the main contactors. I?ve seen all the other codes before, they are not that uncommon with a low battery voltage, (Low for NiMH). However the manual indicates DTC 258, your air flow sensor, can be tripped with shorts to ground on circuit 492. (Probe that). Could have gotten damaged since you were working in the area.
DTC 280 can be set with a short or open on circuit 942 (ADM?s supply to BPCM?), or the lack of 5 volts at the 3 logic lines between the ADM and BPCM. Is far as I can infer from reading, the ADM takes the 400 volts brings it down to 12V (to power itself), then also sends that to the BPCM via circuit 942 (probably just for monitoring & reporting purposes).
I think your culprit is somewhere in there.
Greg. BTY, the replacement CAPs are also 450 volts rated. You can get different life ratings, depending on the product?, but 550 volts would be a lot nicer if they fit. Even the ones I got via Don were a poor fit and needed modification on the terminals to make them work. (Screw holes too small and need to be tapped larger, aluminum terminals need to be filed down for height and to get rid of the boss). The originals {Marcon} have nice nickel plated brass terminals? unfortunately they don?t last. Ambient (high) temperature is apparently a strong contributor to failure looking at the spec sheets.
Replacement is a bear, you have to disassemble the inverter down to the IGBT?s to get at them. email: [email removed]<mailto:[email removed]> From: [email removed] [mailto:[email removed]] On Behalf Of [email removed]
Sent: November-08-13 8:20 PM
To: [email removed]; [email removed]; [email removed]
Subject: Re: [S10-EV] NiMH Self Discharge Rate Don, Rayan's 1998 S10 Ev currently has 5 DTCs. 1.) 0219 Battery pack voltage performance
2.) 0230 State of Charge low
3.) 0258 Battery pack Blower Air Flow circuit low
4.) 0267 Battery Thermal Module Air Flow Performance
5.) 0280 Automatic disconnect power supply out of range The Tech2 shows all 26 packs between 13.2vdc and 13.4vdc
The battery pack blower will not turn on with the Tech2. Suggestions? Thanks, Richard Hatfield
President
Alliance Renewable Energy, Inc -------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [S10-EV] NiMH Self Discharge Rate
From: [email removed]<mailto:[email removed]>
Date: Thu, November 07, 2013 10:16 am
To: [email removed]<mailto:[email removed]>, [email removed]<mailto:[email removed]> Gil was that a 1997? If I recall correctly that did come up on the 1997 but not the 1998. Don In a message dated 11/7/2013 10:13:21 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, [email removed]<mailto:[email removed]> writes:
Hi, Richard-- Check the power supply voltage (stick a pin through the wire) right at the blower. I think it's the red wire. The other two are ground and an on/off command voltage. It should read about 12 volts when the blower is commanded OFF and slightly lower when commanded ON. In my case, the voltage dropped to, like, 2 volts, which wouldn't turn the motor. We traced the wires (using the GM Electrical Wiring Diagrams in the Manual) to a connector up in that nest in front of the driver-side firewall and found a 10-volt drop across one particular pin on one particular connector. Bridging the connector made the blower run. Clearly, that pin is undersized for the amount of current carried for the blower. A similar connector/pin undersizement and eventual burnout is for the condenser fan, up near the radiator. It's easier to find, though, because the wires are more visible. --Gil On Nov 7, 2013, at 7:27 AM, Richard Hatfield wrote: Since the group is checking in I have a question. We have installed a lithium conversion in Rayan's S10-EV. All 26 banks are reading 13.32vdc to 13.34vdc and all temp sensors are reading ambient. We replaced the battery blower due to a bearing failure and board failure on the previous blower. The truck will not complete the wake up process and the blower will not run when turned on manually with the tech2. Suggestions of what to try next? Thanks, Richard Hatfield
Lightning Motorcycle On Nov 6, 2013, at 7:54 PM, [email removed]<mailto:[email removed]> wrote:
Self discharge depends a lot on temperature If you fully charge a pack and it warms up to eighty plus degrees and don't drive it. You will lose capacity quickly. The tray retains heat for quite a long time. The NiMH modules also produce a little heat as they self discharge. The 12 volt battery will go dead or very near it in a couple of weeks. Even if you disconnect the High voltage plug. The BPCM continues to pull power out of the pack. I have had packs opened up off to the side of the vehicle and you can actually hear it. If the pack is cool say 50 degrees or less it will hold a charge for 4 to 6 weeks. However NiMH batteries don't do very well sitting around. Its really best to use them everyday 40% to 80% and fully charge them when your balancing or conditioning the pack. Which should be done once a month. Don Blazer In a message dated 11/6/2013 1:00:36 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, [email removed]<mailto:[email removed]> writes:
I have a '98 native NiMH. Over the years I have occasionally had to leave it sit for a few weeks or more without charging (vacation, down for maintenance, etc), and I also noticed the very high self-discharge rate. It seemed that it would loose most of its charge in about two weeks (modules in the low 13V range). (This is my observation, I don't have detailed measurements). I assumed it was internal self-discharge in the NiMH Modules. I recently discovered that if you disconnect the HV disconnect plug and disconnect the 12V auxiliary battery, the supposed self-discharge drops to a fraction of the rate observed when the truck is left in the key-off ready state. For example, after a full charge, and then disconnecting +12 and HV as mentioned, after 2-1/2 weeks the module voltages are still in the 14.2 V to 14.3V range. This makes me think that the self-discharge of the NiMH modules is really not that bad, and that there are other things on the truck (like all the computers and the periodic refreshing of the +12 battery) that is the major source of the drain. Has anyone else tried this? If the others are like mine, then if you need to store the vehicle without charging for a few weeks (I don't know the limit on this), then be sure to disconnect the HV disconnect plug and the 12V aux battery. Thanks, Niel
Chicago
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Hi, Richard-- > We then checked the signal wire and also found no change in voltage. When we closed the signal wire circuit to ground the battery pack blower ran with full power. There's a clue. The signal wire is a PWM signal at TTL levels, which means that the computer can control the speed of the motor by varying the pulse width on a 5-volt square wave. In fact, as implemented in the S-10E, the computer generates only two pulse widths -- OFF and ON. The fact that grounding the wire turns the blower on tells us two likely-maybes: that the ON state is probably zero volts.
that the input has a pull-up resistor, so that open is OFF. This suggests that the PWM TTL signal is not getting from the computer to the "power buffer" (GM's terminology for the solid-state-relay that turns the blower on and off rapidly.) Using the GM electrical diagrams, you can now trace this signal wire toward its source, testing by grounding it, looking for an OPEN. --Gil On Nov 12, 2013, at 6:27 PM, <[email removed]> <[email removed]> wrote: > We made some further progress on Rayan's S10 today. We took the advice provided and probed the 12Vdc and ground wires to the battery pack blower. When we commanded the battery pack blower on there was no change in the supply voltage (still 12vdc). We then checked the signal wire and also found no change in voltage. When we closed the signal wire circuit to ground the battery pack blower ran with full power. After approximately a minue we did see changes in the 6 battery pack temp sensors and the main airflow temp sensor. However, the airflow sensor continued to display 0% airflow. We have confirmed that the battery pack blower has no obstructions before or after. We swapped the HTCM module with the HTCM module in my truck and did not see any changes. The manual states that the BCIM closes the battery pack signal circuit to ground. Next we attempted to swap the BCIM with the BCIM and in my truck but we have been able to locate it under the right hand "hush panel". > > Suggestions?
> > Richard Hatfield
> President
> Alliance Renewable Energy, Inc
> > > -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: RE: [S10-EV] NiMH Self Discharge Rate
> From: Greg Rohrauer <[email removed]>
> Date: Fri, November 08, 2013 6:29 pm
> To: "[email removed]"
> <[email removed]>, "[email removed]"
> <[email removed]>, "[email removed]" <[email removed]>, > "[email removed]" <[email removed]>
> > Richard:
> I?m assuming you have the service manuals & scan tool? having attempted this battery swap. The pack voltage ought be fine according to what you indicate. I?d clear everything and start fresh, seeing which codes reappear.
> I?d be most worried about DTC 280, as it controls the main contactors. I?ve seen all the other codes before, they are not that uncommon with a low battery voltage, (Low for NiMH). However the manual indicates DTC 258, your air flow sensor, can be tripped with shorts to ground on circuit 492. (Probe that). Could have gotten damaged since you were working in the area.
> DTC 280 can be set with a short or open on circuit 942 (ADM?s supply to BPCM?), or the lack of 5 volts at the 3 logic lines between the ADM and BPCM. Is far as I can infer from reading, the ADM takes the 400 volts brings it down to 12V (to power itself), then also sends that to the BPCM via circuit 942 (probably just for monitoring & reporting purposes).
> I think your culprit is somewhere in there.
> Greg.
> > BTY, the replacement CAPs are also 450 volts rated. You can get different life ratings, depending on the product?, but 550 volts would be a lot nicer if they fit. Even the ones I got via Don were a poor fit and needed modification on the terminals to make them work. (Screw holes too small and need to be tapped larger, aluminum terminals need to be filed down for height and to get rid of the boss). The originals {Marcon} have nice nickel plated brass terminals? unfortunately they don?t last. Ambient (high) temperature is apparently a strong contributor to failure looking at the spec sheets.
> Replacement is a bear, you have to disassemble the inverter down to the IGBT?s to get at them.
> > > email: [email removed]
> > From: [email removed] [mailto:[email removed]] On Behalf Of [email removed]
> Sent: November-08-13 8:20 PM
> To: [email removed]; [email removed]; [email removed]
> Subject: Re: [S10-EV] NiMH Self Discharge Rate
> > Don,
> > Rayan's 1998 S10 Ev currently has 5 DTCs.
> > 1.) 0219 Battery pack voltage performance
> 2.) 0230 State of Charge low
> 3.) 0258 Battery pack Blower Air Flow circuit low
> 4.) 0267 Battery Thermal Module Air Flow Performance
> 5.) 0280 Automatic disconnect power supply out of range
> > The Tech2 shows all 26 packs between 13.2vdc and 13.4vdc
> The battery pack blower will not turn on with the Tech2.
> > Suggestions?
> > Thanks,
> > Richard Hatfield
> President
> Alliance Renewable Energy, Inc
> > -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [S10-EV] NiMH Self Discharge Rate
> From: [email removed]
> Date: Thu, November 07, 2013 10:16 am
> To: [email removed], [email removed]
> > > Gil was that a 1997? If I recall correctly that did come up on the 1997 but not the 1998.
> > Don
> > In a message dated 11/7/2013 10:13:21 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, [email removed] writes:
> Hi, Richard--
> > Check the power supply voltage (stick a pin through the wire) right at the blower. I think it's the red wire. The other two are ground and an on/off command voltage. It should read about 12 volts when the blower is commanded OFF and slightly lower when commanded ON. > > In my case, the voltage dropped to, like, 2 volts, which wouldn't turn the motor. We traced the wires (using the GM Electrical Wiring Diagrams in the Manual) to a connector up in that nest in front of the driver-side firewall and found a 10-volt drop across one particular pin on one particular connector. Bridging the connector made the blower run.
> > Clearly, that pin is undersized for the amount of current carried for the blower. A similar connector/pin undersizement and eventual burnout is for the condenser fan, up near the radiator. It's easier to find, though, because the wires are more visible.
> > --Gil
> > On Nov 7, 2013, at 7:27 AM, Richard Hatfield wrote:
> > > Since the group is checking in I have a question. We have installed a lithium conversion in Rayan's S10-EV. All 26 banks are reading 13.32vdc to 13.34vdc and all temp sensors are reading ambient. We replaced the battery blower due to a bearing failure and board failure on the previous blower. The truck will not complete the wake up process and the blower will not run when turned on manually with the tech2. Suggestions of what to try next?
> > Thanks,
> > Richard Hatfield
> Lightning Motorcycle
> > > On Nov 6, 2013, at 7:54 PM, [email removed] wrote:
> Self discharge depends a lot on temperature
> > If you fully charge a pack and it warms up to eighty plus degrees and don't drive it. You will lose capacity quickly. The tray retains heat for quite a long time. The NiMH modules also produce a little heat as they self discharge.
> > The 12 volt battery will go dead or very near it in a couple of weeks.
> > Even if you disconnect the High voltage plug. The BPCM continues to pull power out of the pack. I have had packs opened up off to the side of the vehicle and you can actually hear it.
> > If the pack is cool say 50 degrees or less it will hold a charge for 4 to 6 weeks.
> > However NiMH batteries don't do very well sitting around. Its really best to use them everyday 40% to 80% and fully charge them when your balancing or conditioning the pack. Which should be done once a month.
> > Don Blazer
> > In a message dated 11/6/2013 1:00:36 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, [email removed] writes:
> I have a '98 native NiMH. Over the years I have occasionally had to leave it sit for a few weeks or more without charging (vacation, down for maintenance, etc), and I also noticed the very high self-discharge rate. It seemed that it would loose most of its charge in about two weeks (modules in the low 13V range). (This is my observation, I don't have detailed measurements). I assumed it was internal self-discharge in the NiMH Modules.
> > I recently discovered that if you disconnect the HV disconnect plug and disconnect the 12V auxiliary battery, the supposed self-discharge drops to a fraction of the rate observed when the truck is left in the key-off ready state. For example, after a full charge, and then disconnecting +12 and HV as mentioned, after 2-1/2 weeks the module voltages are still in the 14.2 V to 14.3V range. This makes me think that the self-discharge of the NiMH modules is really not that bad, and that there are other things on the truck (like all the computers and the periodic refreshing of the +12 battery) that is the major source of the drain.
> > Has anyone else tried this?
> > If the others are like mine, then if you need to store the vehicle without charging for a few weeks (I don't know the limit on this), then be sure to disconnect the HV disconnect plug and the 12V aux battery.
> > Thanks,
> > Niel
> Chicago
> _______________________________________________
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