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[S10-EV] S10-EV Digest, Vol 127, Issue 15
i was asleep again,? I woke up at 6 with a horrible headache,? I think its those norcos,?? I cant take them anymore. >________________________________
> From: "[email removed]" <[email removed]>
>To: [email removed] >Sent: Wednesday, November 6, 2013 10:05 PM
>Subject: S10-EV Digest, Vol 127, Issue 15
> >
>----- Forwarded Message -----
>
>Send S10-EV mailing list submissions to
>??? [email removed]
>
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>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>??? [email removed]
>
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>??? [email removed]
>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of S10-EV digest..."
>
>Today's Topics:
>
>? 1. Re: NiMH Self Discharge Rate (Nikolay Shishkov)
>? 2.? Checking in to S10EV Group (Robin Hopkins)
>? 3. Re: Checking in to S10EV Group (Lee Underkofler)
>
>I would imagine that the reason for the high "self discharge" rate of the pack can be a stuck pre-charge relay.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On Wednesday, November 6, 2013 10:00 AM, Niel Nielsen <[email removed]> wrote:
> >I have a '98 native NiMH.? Over the years I have occasionally had to leave it sit for a few weeks or more without charging (vacation, down for maintenance, etc), and I also noticed the very high self-discharge rate.? It seemed that it would loose most of its charge in about two weeks (modules in the low 13V range).? (This is my observation, I don't have detailed measurements).? I assumed it was internal self-discharge in the NiMH Modules.
>
>I recently discovered that if you disconnect the HV disconnect plug and disconnect the 12V auxiliary battery, the supposed self-discharge drops to a fraction of the rate observed when the truck is left in the key-off ready state.? For example, after a full charge, and then disconnecting +12 and HV as mentioned, after 2-1/2 weeks the module voltages are still in the 14.2 V to 14.3V range.? This makes me think that the self-discharge of the NiMH modules is really not that bad, and that there are other things on the truck (like all the computers and the periodic refreshing of? the +12 battery) that is the major source of the drain.
>
>Has anyone else tried this?
>
>If the others are like mine, then if you need to store? the vehicle without charging for a few weeks (I don't know the limit on this), then be sure to disconnect the HV disconnect plug and the 12V aux battery.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Niel
>Chicago
> >_______________________________________________
>S10-EV mailing list
>[email removed]
>http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
>
>
>I thought I'd better stick my hand up too and be counted. >I purchased a 97 PbA last year that had been sitting at one of the USAF bases and had it shipped to the Pacific northwest. It was in pretty good shape (except for the batteries of course). My goal was a learning experience and to have a piece of EV history - how many North American OEM production vehicles from the late 90's only have 60 or so units in public hands.
>I learned a huge amount from the archives, although it did take me a long time to work through them all. I really appreciate that the archives have been maintained, and that some of the original posters have been so helpful with, for example, acquiring chargers, hard copies of the manuals, and some general assistance.
>I have been picking away with many of the suggested repairs, but am not as far along as I had hoped (or as my children wish). It is however very entertaining for my neighbours.
>I enjoy the design aspects of the truck and the amount of thought that went into it (or didn't in some cases).
>While I may ultimately end with a one of the new EVs as a daily driver, it is my intent to get the S10ev going again (one way or another).
>Happy to see the increased email activity as well, thanks for kicking that off. Count me as an enthusiast.
>Robin Hopkins
>
>Don, good to hear from you...!
>
>
>I still have parts from two dismantled S10-EVs I listed for you and would be glad to let them go to anyone for any offer if they are needed. ?Since I can't test them, I will refund if anything I supply is not functional.
>
>
>You mentioned doing a Lithium-Ion battery conversion as proof of concept. ?Richard Hatfield, of Lightning Motorcycle fame, did a successful S10-EV LiFePo4 conversion a couple of years ago which he said performed pretty well, as I remember. ?He use to be on this S10-EV thread. ?He also can supply LiFePo4 batteries.
>
>
>Lee
>
>
>
>On Wednesday, November 6, 2013 12:01 PM, Greg Rohrauer <[email removed]> wrote:
> >Robert:
>After dropping the pack the first time I installed a set of cables ?& external connector that bypasses the main contactor. This way I can hook up an external DC source to charge / piggyback, or use the pack as a supply for something else. I had a few experiments in mind. In any case the handiest use has been to get myself out of trouble when the BCM won?t allow the contactor to engage because it detects a (small) problem, like the case I explained with the bad temperature sensor. Another time or two I overcame a condition where the replaced modules were really badly out of balance in a their state of charge and/or awakening compared to the rest of the pack. I managed to trickle charge them to where they needed to be, when the BCM detected too great a voltage difference between modules and simply shut charging down with error codes no matter how often I tried.
>All this is quite dangerous, and certainly not recommended, unless you really know what is happening and have accumulated experience. Basically you need to turn the fans on manually with the scan tool, and monitor temperatures and voltages quite intently. I set the BRUSA for a very conservative charge profile and ended at about 90% SOC., say 410-415 volts, depends on the ambient, not something to be left unattended. It is a task to oversee the 26 modules manually. The real heat does not show up until some hours after the charging has ended, so best to end early. Trickle charging NiMh is risky, about 1 amp, perhaps 1.5 works, and you REALLY need to plot temperature. There will be a lot of overshoot, perhaps 20F after you stop charging. Going past 140F is real easy, and very bad. The BRUSA can be programmed to do more or less anything you want, and precise control is key, so it is the right tool.
>?
>Next time I work on it, I?ll probably modify it so I have remote secondary control over the main contactor, or install a second contactor set for the auxiliary cables. Bringing out live cables, even fused, is just asking for additional trouble no matter how well they are physically protected and insulated. I?m certainly not proud of their installation.
>?
>Greg.
>?
>
>email: [email removed]
>?
>From:[email removed] [mailto:[email removed]] On Behalf Of Robert Ogle
>Sent: November-05-13 9:40 PM
>To: [email removed]
>Subject: [S10-EV] Checking in to S10EV Group
>?
>Well, I've lost the packs on my trucks this summer. I think that the heat got too much for the NiMH. I had to stop storing the truck in the garage, to make room for the Leaf.
>
>So, I'm on the lookout for battery options. Haven't heard anything from the folks in Oregon, like Don.
>
>I know that one of our members here in the Bay Area recently completed a Li upgrade, but haven't heard about progress or performance for a couple months. I am not sure what the cost was, but believe that Richard Hatfield worked on the mod.
>
>I was interested in the note on the BRUSA charging and would like to hear more about how this is managed. Greg, can you post some more or email me separately, if you'd rather?
>
>Regards, >
>Bob
>From: [email removed]
>Subject: S10-EV Digest, Vol 127, Issue 5
>To: [email removed]
>Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 17:34:18 -0500
>Send S10-EV mailing list submissions to
>??????? [email removed]
>
>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>??????? http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>??????? [email removed]
>
>You can reach the person managing the list at
>??????? [email removed]
>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of S10-EV digest..."
>
>
>--Forwarded Message Attachment--
>From: [email removed]
>To: [email removed]
>Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 14:27:28 -0800
>Subject: Re: [S10-EV] S10-EV Digest, Vol 127, Issue 4
>Re: Am I too late to the S10-EV party?
>?
>It would be good to use this opportunity for the S10-EV group to check in with each other, as I agree it has been fairly quiet for too many months.
>?
>I still drive my 1998 EV Bones NiMH conversion from 2008 till very recently.? I have developed a problem where one module battery voltage is going low (#13), while the other is going high (#14).? I'll drop the battery pack in the next few weeks to see what's going on.
>?
>Steve
>?
>On Monday, November 4, 2013 3:15 PM, "[email removed]" <[email removed]> wrote:
>----- Forwarded Message -----
>
>Send S10-EV mailing list submissions to
>??? [email removed]
>
>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>??? http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>??? [email removed]
>
>You can reach the person managing the list at
>??? [email removed]
>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of S10-EV digest..."
>
>Today's Topics:
>
>? 1. FW:? Am I too late to the S10-EV party? (Greg Rohrauer)
>? 2. Re: S10-EV Digest, Vol 127, Issue 2 ([email removed])
>I forgot to ?reply-all? to include the list server, below is my original note to Tom Chou.
>?
>Some additional info:
>?
>The Ovonic NiMh modules tend to self-discharge very quickly. Usually down to about 50% SOC if I leave the truck sitting for 2 weeks. In comparison my Rav4 EV will exhibit about the same self-discharge rate as the S10 for the first day, but once it hits 90% SOC (~ 2 days), it simply stays there. Panasonic EV-95?s are much superior.
>The A/C cooling system also needs an overhaul, it leaks the refrigerant, does not build proper pressure, valves getting stuck, etc. Another project, along with fixing some overly stiff joints in the steering (cheap aftermarket parts installed). I look forward to the day when I have a properly balanced and conditioned 100 AH (useable) pack installed. Presently I can extract 50 AH on a good day, but you have to drive IMMEDIATELY after charging. If I?m careful, I can get keep the ?battery life? warning light off till I?m into the red zone. On cold days, it is hard to dip below 50% SOC without ?getting the light?. This is essentially due to high internal resistance, which really shows itself on cold days. I do drive occasionally in the winter (live in the great white north), but reliable range without tripping the light at -10C is on the order of 15 miles, so I tend to select days when temperatures hover near the freezing point, or above.
>?
>As I wrote to Tom in another email, I?ve had the pack out of the S10 EV 3 times in the last 4 years, chasing problems with modules. Best thing I did is buy spares from Don Blazer the day I purchased this EV bones ?97 NiMh conversion. ?As I gathered from the seller, it is the last truck converted before EV Bones closed doors. It had both a dead charge port and bad module by the time it came into my hands. Hopefully it has not yet reached the infamy of being the last truck standing.
>?
>BTW, my RAV4-EV ?(which has over 100K miles on the original un-serviced pack) has performed admirably, even at -20C, where it is down to about half its range, so it is much more of a daily driver.
>?
>Greg.
>From:Greg Rohrauer >Sent: November-01-13 5:01 PM
>To: Tom Chou
>Subject: Re: [S10-EV] Am I too late to the S10-EV party?
>?
>I still drive mine. Mostly I use it for gardening work and hauling big box stuff. Had to drop the pack a few months ago to fix a temperature sensor that failed due to a slightly leaking cell's KOH on the upper tray eventually finding its way into the lower tray past some insulation (sensor went open circuit). Truck still drove with the bad sensor but charger would not engage. Had to boost charge it with the BRUSA to get it from my house to my lab/shop in order to do the service. Stuck the leaky module on the bottom. Paradoxically module still works fine, but I plan a major battery pack overhaul next summer, so this was simply to keep it running. Range is still the same as when I first got it. Max practical is about 50 miles, typically I drive 40 miles rural highway and suburbia. Greg. >I suspect there are not many trucks operational, perhaps a handful at best. >Sent from my BlackBerry? phone powered by Koodo Mobile?.
>From: Tom Chou <[email removed]> >Sender: "[email removed]" <[email removed]> >Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 15:58:56 -0400
>To: [email removed]<[email removed]>
>Subject: [S10-EV] Am I too late to the S10-EV party?
>?
>Am I too late to the S10-EV party? ?I just joined this email list about a month ago and went through 13 years of archived mail to get up to speed. ?It was very interesting to read about the complete life cycle, if you will, of these trucks from birth to death so to speak, to see how so many owners were really excited to get their trucks on the road when they got them out of auction only to lose interest a few years later and sell, typically at a big financial loss.
>?
>I have to say it's disappointing to see how there's practically zero interest (judging from the lack of mail) in these trucks today. ?Is anyone still driving theirs, or have they mostly been parked, waiting for a reasonable battery solution? ?Are the owners still driving theirs buying up dead ones as parts vehicles?
>?
>Does anyone have an archive of the EV-bones site? ?I was disappointed to see that Jeff didn't leave the site up for informational/historical value. ?It's hard to find any technical info on these trucks out on the web at all. ?I learned a great deal reading all the email archives but it was pretty tedious and took a lot of time! ?Actually, I'm surprised this is a email digest/list rather than a forum like most any other enthusiast site, but I suppose with only about 60 of these trucks ever in public hands there was never enough interest to warrant a web site and forum?
>?
>Anyone out there still have any interest in these trucks at all? ?Or is it just quiet out there because there's nothing new going on worth writing about?
>?
>Tom
>?
>?
>?
>Hi Kevin,
>I'm the guy in the Northeast that modified the battery box. Mine is still on the road with about 12K miles on the Deka 12AVR75 batteries. The box modification gave me a few benefits. I converted the bed to tilt and the top part of the box is removable. I can get to all 26 batteries without dropping the box. I recently replaced a battery and 1 more is setting codes, so my pack is tired. I'm still waiting for Lithium to become reasonable but it's not happening fast enough. Last price I heard was about $13K to swap. My range is down to about 20 miles now. But I'm retired and the truck is fine for trips to Loews and the store and I?have several other vehicles for longer trips.
>I recently had someone interested in buying my truck, but I asked for $12K and the offer was less than half that, so I guess I'll just keep enjoying my truck. >Kevin McMullin
>Bear, Delaware
>?
>In a message dated 11/4/2013 1:24:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [email removed] writes:
>OK, you inspired me to reply!
>>
>>I used to own one, but sold it?? a few years ago.??The guys who bought it were great, and I'm hoping that they are still enthusiastic.
>>
>>There was one joker from Miami who I also tried to help, even sending him a DVD with the complete manuals for the truck.??All I asked was to be reimbursed for the postage, as I expressly stated that I didn't want to make any profit, but I never heard from him again.
>>
>>The final situation in my opinion is that the truck is incredibly complicated, due to the guy who designed the electronics.??A true genius apparently,??but he did things his way.??That coupled with a less than stellar capacitor which degraded over time which if malfunctioning would essentially destroy the truck, proved to be a problem.??Don did get more of the capacitors, but I never got around to working on the truck, due to the other catch-22, the batteries.
>>
>>The truck originally used one of the best Pb-A batteries ever, made by Panasonic, but completely removed from the U.S., but I think that's another story.??The shape of the batteries thus made it impossible to drop anything comparable into the space.??I did find a couple of alternatives that would work, after a huge search, but then ran into the other side of he Catch-22, the cost of the batteries.??I didn't want to spend $4k or so on batteries to only find out he truck didn't work, but the only way to find out if he truck worked was to put the batteries in.
>>
>>I have a few photos from the old evbones website, which I can find if there is any interest.??The other problem with the trucks was that there was really only one guy on earth who could work on the truck, and he was a bit unusual and not the easiest guy to work with.
>>
>>I even contacted a place to try to "convert" the truck to electric with other components, but never had any reply.??I guess it sounded somewhat ridiculous.
>>
>>So yes, somewhat if Don, who is a great guy, is gone from the S10ev scene, and he didn't find another enthusiast to take his place, it doesn't look good.??There has been somebody up I the northeast who's gotten his running by modifying the battery box, and one other guy who is running with lithium, which is pretty much cost-prohibitive??for just one truck.
>>
>>And yes, I did move away and into a Nissan LEAF, and have gone about 21k miles on electric.??But the LEAF is not 100% spectacular either, due to Nissan's battery choice.??But it seems the may step up and fix it, but right now it's a we'll see.
>>
>>Kevin Kayden
>>Bartow FL
>>
>>From: [email removed]
>>Subject: S10-EV Digest, Vol 127, Issue 2
>>To: [email removed]
>>Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 04:56:00 -0500
>>Send S10-EV mailing list submissions to
>>[email removed]
>>
>>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>? http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
>>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>??? [email removed]
>>
>>You can reach the person managing the list at
>>? [email removed]
>>
>>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>than "Re: Contents of S10-EV digest..."
>>
>>
>>--Forwarded Message Attachment--
>>From: [email removed]
>>To: [email removed]
>>Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2013 10:05:11 -0500
>>Subject: Re: [S10-EV] Am I too late to the S10-EV party?
>>Wow, only responses from 3 people to my post, I guess that speaks volumes! ?It's disappointing, but understandable. ?I hope no one (of the 3 reading this!) takes this the wrong way, but my take on this is that most of the people on this list aren't really enthusiasts of the vehicle, but rather are EV enthusiast, and just gravitated to this truck because it was the only thing available. ?So naturally, now that there are over a dozen EV offerings at dealerships, there's essentially zero interest in the S10-EV. ?I wonder if the DIY electric car groups are dwindling too as they lose the guys that aren't really engineers or into the EV scene as a hobbyist.? >>?
>>I'm surprised that Don hasn't chimed in as he seems to be one of the few guys that seems to be an actual enthusiast of the truck itself and sounds like he may end up owning every last one of 'em!
>>?
>>Tom
>>?
>>
>>
>>--Forwarded Message Attachment--
>>From: [email removed]
>>To: [email removed]; [email removed]; [email removed]
>>Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2013 15:41:34 +0000
>>Subject: Re: [S10-EV] Am I too late to the S10-EV party?
>>Hello,
>>There doesn't seem to be any real buzz about the S10-EV but I suspect that most owners will hang on to theirs. >>I personally thought of keeping mine but am running out of storage space so will probably sell it. >>Probyn. >>Sent from my BlackBerry? smartphone powered by Mobilicity
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Tom Chou <[email removed]>
>>Sender: [email removed]
>>Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2013 10:05:11 >>To: s10-ev<[email removed]>
>>Subject: Re: [S10-EV] Am I too late to the S10-EV party?
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>S10-EV mailing list
>>[email removed]
>>http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
>>
>>
>>
>>--Forwarded Message Attachment--
>>From: [email removed]
>>To: [email removed]; [email removed]
>>Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2013 12:58:11 -0500
>>Subject: Re: [S10-EV] Am I too late to the S10-EV party?
>>
>>Hi Tom,
>>I probably would have kept mine since I didn't have the cash to run out and buy one of the newer EV offerings, but my commute changed. I now have to travel 50 miles each way to work and the S10 just couldn't do that. Seriously your assessment is correct at least in my case. My wife and I wanted an EV and the S10 was all that was available. While I am an electrical supervisor and had a mechanic friend willing to help me build an EV what I really wanted and still want is an EV to drive - not something to work on as a hobby. The Tesla is the only EV that could handle my commute today and that is way outside my budget, so I am considering a used Chevy Volt as a possibility for my commuting car sometime next year.
>>
>>Richard >>?
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Tom Chou <[email removed]>
>>To: s10-ev <[email removed]>
>>Sent: Sun, Nov 3, 2013 7:05 am
>>Subject: Re: [S10-EV] Am I too late to the S10-EV party?
>>Wow, only responses from 3 people to my post, I guess that speaks volumes! ?It's disappointing, but understandable. ?I hope no one (of the 3 reading this!) takes this the wrong way, but my take on this is that most of the people on this list aren't really enthusiasts of the vehicle, but rather are EV enthusiast, and just gravitated to this truck because it was the only thing available. ?So naturally, now that there are over a dozen EV offerings at dealerships, there's essentially zero interest in the S10-EV. ?I wonder if the DIY electric car groups are dwindling too as they lose the guys that aren't really engineers or into the EV scene as a hobbyist.? >>?
>>I'm surprised that Don hasn't chimed in as he seems to be one of the few guys that seems to be an actual enthusiast of the truck itself and sounds like he may end up owning every last one of 'em!
>>?
>>Tom
>>?
>>_______________________________________________
>>S10-EV mailing list
>>[email removed]
>>http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
>>=
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>S10-EV mailing list
>>[email removed]
>>http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
>
>_______________________________________________
>S10-EV mailing list
>[email removed]
>http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>S10-EV mailing list
>[email removed]
>http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>S10-EV mailing list
>[email removed]
>http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
>
>
>
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> From: "[email removed]" <[email removed]>
>To: [email removed] >Sent: Wednesday, November 6, 2013 10:05 PM
>Subject: S10-EV Digest, Vol 127, Issue 15
> >
>----- Forwarded Message -----
>
>Send S10-EV mailing list submissions to
>??? [email removed]
>
>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>??? http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>??? [email removed]
>
>You can reach the person managing the list at
>??? [email removed]
>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of S10-EV digest..."
>
>Today's Topics:
>
>? 1. Re: NiMH Self Discharge Rate (Nikolay Shishkov)
>? 2.? Checking in to S10EV Group (Robin Hopkins)
>? 3. Re: Checking in to S10EV Group (Lee Underkofler)
>
>I would imagine that the reason for the high "self discharge" rate of the pack can be a stuck pre-charge relay.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On Wednesday, November 6, 2013 10:00 AM, Niel Nielsen <[email removed]> wrote:
> >I have a '98 native NiMH.? Over the years I have occasionally had to leave it sit for a few weeks or more without charging (vacation, down for maintenance, etc), and I also noticed the very high self-discharge rate.? It seemed that it would loose most of its charge in about two weeks (modules in the low 13V range).? (This is my observation, I don't have detailed measurements).? I assumed it was internal self-discharge in the NiMH Modules.
>
>I recently discovered that if you disconnect the HV disconnect plug and disconnect the 12V auxiliary battery, the supposed self-discharge drops to a fraction of the rate observed when the truck is left in the key-off ready state.? For example, after a full charge, and then disconnecting +12 and HV as mentioned, after 2-1/2 weeks the module voltages are still in the 14.2 V to 14.3V range.? This makes me think that the self-discharge of the NiMH modules is really not that bad, and that there are other things on the truck (like all the computers and the periodic refreshing of? the +12 battery) that is the major source of the drain.
>
>Has anyone else tried this?
>
>If the others are like mine, then if you need to store? the vehicle without charging for a few weeks (I don't know the limit on this), then be sure to disconnect the HV disconnect plug and the 12V aux battery.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Niel
>Chicago
> >_______________________________________________
>S10-EV mailing list
>[email removed]
>http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
>
>
>I thought I'd better stick my hand up too and be counted. >I purchased a 97 PbA last year that had been sitting at one of the USAF bases and had it shipped to the Pacific northwest. It was in pretty good shape (except for the batteries of course). My goal was a learning experience and to have a piece of EV history - how many North American OEM production vehicles from the late 90's only have 60 or so units in public hands.
>I learned a huge amount from the archives, although it did take me a long time to work through them all. I really appreciate that the archives have been maintained, and that some of the original posters have been so helpful with, for example, acquiring chargers, hard copies of the manuals, and some general assistance.
>I have been picking away with many of the suggested repairs, but am not as far along as I had hoped (or as my children wish). It is however very entertaining for my neighbours.
>I enjoy the design aspects of the truck and the amount of thought that went into it (or didn't in some cases).
>While I may ultimately end with a one of the new EVs as a daily driver, it is my intent to get the S10ev going again (one way or another).
>Happy to see the increased email activity as well, thanks for kicking that off. Count me as an enthusiast.
>Robin Hopkins
>
>Don, good to hear from you...!
>
>
>I still have parts from two dismantled S10-EVs I listed for you and would be glad to let them go to anyone for any offer if they are needed. ?Since I can't test them, I will refund if anything I supply is not functional.
>
>
>You mentioned doing a Lithium-Ion battery conversion as proof of concept. ?Richard Hatfield, of Lightning Motorcycle fame, did a successful S10-EV LiFePo4 conversion a couple of years ago which he said performed pretty well, as I remember. ?He use to be on this S10-EV thread. ?He also can supply LiFePo4 batteries.
>
>
>Lee
>
>
>
>On Wednesday, November 6, 2013 12:01 PM, Greg Rohrauer <[email removed]> wrote:
> >Robert:
>After dropping the pack the first time I installed a set of cables ?& external connector that bypasses the main contactor. This way I can hook up an external DC source to charge / piggyback, or use the pack as a supply for something else. I had a few experiments in mind. In any case the handiest use has been to get myself out of trouble when the BCM won?t allow the contactor to engage because it detects a (small) problem, like the case I explained with the bad temperature sensor. Another time or two I overcame a condition where the replaced modules were really badly out of balance in a their state of charge and/or awakening compared to the rest of the pack. I managed to trickle charge them to where they needed to be, when the BCM detected too great a voltage difference between modules and simply shut charging down with error codes no matter how often I tried.
>All this is quite dangerous, and certainly not recommended, unless you really know what is happening and have accumulated experience. Basically you need to turn the fans on manually with the scan tool, and monitor temperatures and voltages quite intently. I set the BRUSA for a very conservative charge profile and ended at about 90% SOC., say 410-415 volts, depends on the ambient, not something to be left unattended. It is a task to oversee the 26 modules manually. The real heat does not show up until some hours after the charging has ended, so best to end early. Trickle charging NiMh is risky, about 1 amp, perhaps 1.5 works, and you REALLY need to plot temperature. There will be a lot of overshoot, perhaps 20F after you stop charging. Going past 140F is real easy, and very bad. The BRUSA can be programmed to do more or less anything you want, and precise control is key, so it is the right tool.
>?
>Next time I work on it, I?ll probably modify it so I have remote secondary control over the main contactor, or install a second contactor set for the auxiliary cables. Bringing out live cables, even fused, is just asking for additional trouble no matter how well they are physically protected and insulated. I?m certainly not proud of their installation.
>?
>Greg.
>?
>
>email: [email removed]
>?
>From:[email removed] [mailto:[email removed]] On Behalf Of Robert Ogle
>Sent: November-05-13 9:40 PM
>To: [email removed]
>Subject: [S10-EV] Checking in to S10EV Group
>?
>Well, I've lost the packs on my trucks this summer. I think that the heat got too much for the NiMH. I had to stop storing the truck in the garage, to make room for the Leaf.
>
>So, I'm on the lookout for battery options. Haven't heard anything from the folks in Oregon, like Don.
>
>I know that one of our members here in the Bay Area recently completed a Li upgrade, but haven't heard about progress or performance for a couple months. I am not sure what the cost was, but believe that Richard Hatfield worked on the mod.
>
>I was interested in the note on the BRUSA charging and would like to hear more about how this is managed. Greg, can you post some more or email me separately, if you'd rather?
>
>Regards, >
>Bob
>From: [email removed]
>Subject: S10-EV Digest, Vol 127, Issue 5
>To: [email removed]
>Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 17:34:18 -0500
>Send S10-EV mailing list submissions to
>??????? [email removed]
>
>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>??????? http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>??????? [email removed]
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>You can reach the person managing the list at
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>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of S10-EV digest..."
>
>
>--Forwarded Message Attachment--
>From: [email removed]
>To: [email removed]
>Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 14:27:28 -0800
>Subject: Re: [S10-EV] S10-EV Digest, Vol 127, Issue 4
>Re: Am I too late to the S10-EV party?
>?
>It would be good to use this opportunity for the S10-EV group to check in with each other, as I agree it has been fairly quiet for too many months.
>?
>I still drive my 1998 EV Bones NiMH conversion from 2008 till very recently.? I have developed a problem where one module battery voltage is going low (#13), while the other is going high (#14).? I'll drop the battery pack in the next few weeks to see what's going on.
>?
>Steve
>?
>On Monday, November 4, 2013 3:15 PM, "[email removed]" <[email removed]> wrote:
>----- Forwarded Message -----
>
>Send S10-EV mailing list submissions to
>??? [email removed]
>
>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>??? http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>??? [email removed]
>
>You can reach the person managing the list at
>??? [email removed]
>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of S10-EV digest..."
>
>Today's Topics:
>
>? 1. FW:? Am I too late to the S10-EV party? (Greg Rohrauer)
>? 2. Re: S10-EV Digest, Vol 127, Issue 2 ([email removed])
>I forgot to ?reply-all? to include the list server, below is my original note to Tom Chou.
>?
>Some additional info:
>?
>The Ovonic NiMh modules tend to self-discharge very quickly. Usually down to about 50% SOC if I leave the truck sitting for 2 weeks. In comparison my Rav4 EV will exhibit about the same self-discharge rate as the S10 for the first day, but once it hits 90% SOC (~ 2 days), it simply stays there. Panasonic EV-95?s are much superior.
>The A/C cooling system also needs an overhaul, it leaks the refrigerant, does not build proper pressure, valves getting stuck, etc. Another project, along with fixing some overly stiff joints in the steering (cheap aftermarket parts installed). I look forward to the day when I have a properly balanced and conditioned 100 AH (useable) pack installed. Presently I can extract 50 AH on a good day, but you have to drive IMMEDIATELY after charging. If I?m careful, I can get keep the ?battery life? warning light off till I?m into the red zone. On cold days, it is hard to dip below 50% SOC without ?getting the light?. This is essentially due to high internal resistance, which really shows itself on cold days. I do drive occasionally in the winter (live in the great white north), but reliable range without tripping the light at -10C is on the order of 15 miles, so I tend to select days when temperatures hover near the freezing point, or above.
>?
>As I wrote to Tom in another email, I?ve had the pack out of the S10 EV 3 times in the last 4 years, chasing problems with modules. Best thing I did is buy spares from Don Blazer the day I purchased this EV bones ?97 NiMh conversion. ?As I gathered from the seller, it is the last truck converted before EV Bones closed doors. It had both a dead charge port and bad module by the time it came into my hands. Hopefully it has not yet reached the infamy of being the last truck standing.
>?
>BTW, my RAV4-EV ?(which has over 100K miles on the original un-serviced pack) has performed admirably, even at -20C, where it is down to about half its range, so it is much more of a daily driver.
>?
>Greg.
>From:Greg Rohrauer >Sent: November-01-13 5:01 PM
>To: Tom Chou
>Subject: Re: [S10-EV] Am I too late to the S10-EV party?
>?
>I still drive mine. Mostly I use it for gardening work and hauling big box stuff. Had to drop the pack a few months ago to fix a temperature sensor that failed due to a slightly leaking cell's KOH on the upper tray eventually finding its way into the lower tray past some insulation (sensor went open circuit). Truck still drove with the bad sensor but charger would not engage. Had to boost charge it with the BRUSA to get it from my house to my lab/shop in order to do the service. Stuck the leaky module on the bottom. Paradoxically module still works fine, but I plan a major battery pack overhaul next summer, so this was simply to keep it running. Range is still the same as when I first got it. Max practical is about 50 miles, typically I drive 40 miles rural highway and suburbia. Greg. >I suspect there are not many trucks operational, perhaps a handful at best. >Sent from my BlackBerry? phone powered by Koodo Mobile?.
>From: Tom Chou <[email removed]> >Sender: "[email removed]" <[email removed]> >Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 15:58:56 -0400
>To: [email removed]<[email removed]>
>Subject: [S10-EV] Am I too late to the S10-EV party?
>?
>Am I too late to the S10-EV party? ?I just joined this email list about a month ago and went through 13 years of archived mail to get up to speed. ?It was very interesting to read about the complete life cycle, if you will, of these trucks from birth to death so to speak, to see how so many owners were really excited to get their trucks on the road when they got them out of auction only to lose interest a few years later and sell, typically at a big financial loss.
>?
>I have to say it's disappointing to see how there's practically zero interest (judging from the lack of mail) in these trucks today. ?Is anyone still driving theirs, or have they mostly been parked, waiting for a reasonable battery solution? ?Are the owners still driving theirs buying up dead ones as parts vehicles?
>?
>Does anyone have an archive of the EV-bones site? ?I was disappointed to see that Jeff didn't leave the site up for informational/historical value. ?It's hard to find any technical info on these trucks out on the web at all. ?I learned a great deal reading all the email archives but it was pretty tedious and took a lot of time! ?Actually, I'm surprised this is a email digest/list rather than a forum like most any other enthusiast site, but I suppose with only about 60 of these trucks ever in public hands there was never enough interest to warrant a web site and forum?
>?
>Anyone out there still have any interest in these trucks at all? ?Or is it just quiet out there because there's nothing new going on worth writing about?
>?
>Tom
>?
>?
>?
>Hi Kevin,
>I'm the guy in the Northeast that modified the battery box. Mine is still on the road with about 12K miles on the Deka 12AVR75 batteries. The box modification gave me a few benefits. I converted the bed to tilt and the top part of the box is removable. I can get to all 26 batteries without dropping the box. I recently replaced a battery and 1 more is setting codes, so my pack is tired. I'm still waiting for Lithium to become reasonable but it's not happening fast enough. Last price I heard was about $13K to swap. My range is down to about 20 miles now. But I'm retired and the truck is fine for trips to Loews and the store and I?have several other vehicles for longer trips.
>I recently had someone interested in buying my truck, but I asked for $12K and the offer was less than half that, so I guess I'll just keep enjoying my truck. >Kevin McMullin
>Bear, Delaware
>?
>In a message dated 11/4/2013 1:24:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [email removed] writes:
>OK, you inspired me to reply!
>>
>>I used to own one, but sold it?? a few years ago.??The guys who bought it were great, and I'm hoping that they are still enthusiastic.
>>
>>There was one joker from Miami who I also tried to help, even sending him a DVD with the complete manuals for the truck.??All I asked was to be reimbursed for the postage, as I expressly stated that I didn't want to make any profit, but I never heard from him again.
>>
>>The final situation in my opinion is that the truck is incredibly complicated, due to the guy who designed the electronics.??A true genius apparently,??but he did things his way.??That coupled with a less than stellar capacitor which degraded over time which if malfunctioning would essentially destroy the truck, proved to be a problem.??Don did get more of the capacitors, but I never got around to working on the truck, due to the other catch-22, the batteries.
>>
>>The truck originally used one of the best Pb-A batteries ever, made by Panasonic, but completely removed from the U.S., but I think that's another story.??The shape of the batteries thus made it impossible to drop anything comparable into the space.??I did find a couple of alternatives that would work, after a huge search, but then ran into the other side of he Catch-22, the cost of the batteries.??I didn't want to spend $4k or so on batteries to only find out he truck didn't work, but the only way to find out if he truck worked was to put the batteries in.
>>
>>I have a few photos from the old evbones website, which I can find if there is any interest.??The other problem with the trucks was that there was really only one guy on earth who could work on the truck, and he was a bit unusual and not the easiest guy to work with.
>>
>>I even contacted a place to try to "convert" the truck to electric with other components, but never had any reply.??I guess it sounded somewhat ridiculous.
>>
>>So yes, somewhat if Don, who is a great guy, is gone from the S10ev scene, and he didn't find another enthusiast to take his place, it doesn't look good.??There has been somebody up I the northeast who's gotten his running by modifying the battery box, and one other guy who is running with lithium, which is pretty much cost-prohibitive??for just one truck.
>>
>>And yes, I did move away and into a Nissan LEAF, and have gone about 21k miles on electric.??But the LEAF is not 100% spectacular either, due to Nissan's battery choice.??But it seems the may step up and fix it, but right now it's a we'll see.
>>
>>Kevin Kayden
>>Bartow FL
>>
>>From: [email removed]
>>Subject: S10-EV Digest, Vol 127, Issue 2
>>To: [email removed]
>>Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 04:56:00 -0500
>>Send S10-EV mailing list submissions to
>>[email removed]
>>
>>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>? http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
>>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>??? [email removed]
>>
>>You can reach the person managing the list at
>>? [email removed]
>>
>>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>than "Re: Contents of S10-EV digest..."
>>
>>
>>--Forwarded Message Attachment--
>>From: [email removed]
>>To: [email removed]
>>Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2013 10:05:11 -0500
>>Subject: Re: [S10-EV] Am I too late to the S10-EV party?
>>Wow, only responses from 3 people to my post, I guess that speaks volumes! ?It's disappointing, but understandable. ?I hope no one (of the 3 reading this!) takes this the wrong way, but my take on this is that most of the people on this list aren't really enthusiasts of the vehicle, but rather are EV enthusiast, and just gravitated to this truck because it was the only thing available. ?So naturally, now that there are over a dozen EV offerings at dealerships, there's essentially zero interest in the S10-EV. ?I wonder if the DIY electric car groups are dwindling too as they lose the guys that aren't really engineers or into the EV scene as a hobbyist.? >>?
>>I'm surprised that Don hasn't chimed in as he seems to be one of the few guys that seems to be an actual enthusiast of the truck itself and sounds like he may end up owning every last one of 'em!
>>?
>>Tom
>>?
>>
>>
>>--Forwarded Message Attachment--
>>From: [email removed]
>>To: [email removed]; [email removed]; [email removed]
>>Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2013 15:41:34 +0000
>>Subject: Re: [S10-EV] Am I too late to the S10-EV party?
>>Hello,
>>There doesn't seem to be any real buzz about the S10-EV but I suspect that most owners will hang on to theirs. >>I personally thought of keeping mine but am running out of storage space so will probably sell it. >>Probyn. >>Sent from my BlackBerry? smartphone powered by Mobilicity
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Tom Chou <[email removed]>
>>Sender: [email removed]
>>Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2013 10:05:11 >>To: s10-ev<[email removed]>
>>Subject: Re: [S10-EV] Am I too late to the S10-EV party?
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>S10-EV mailing list
>>[email removed]
>>http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
>>
>>
>>
>>--Forwarded Message Attachment--
>>From: [email removed]
>>To: [email removed]; [email removed]
>>Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2013 12:58:11 -0500
>>Subject: Re: [S10-EV] Am I too late to the S10-EV party?
>>
>>Hi Tom,
>>I probably would have kept mine since I didn't have the cash to run out and buy one of the newer EV offerings, but my commute changed. I now have to travel 50 miles each way to work and the S10 just couldn't do that. Seriously your assessment is correct at least in my case. My wife and I wanted an EV and the S10 was all that was available. While I am an electrical supervisor and had a mechanic friend willing to help me build an EV what I really wanted and still want is an EV to drive - not something to work on as a hobby. The Tesla is the only EV that could handle my commute today and that is way outside my budget, so I am considering a used Chevy Volt as a possibility for my commuting car sometime next year.
>>
>>Richard >>?
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Tom Chou <[email removed]>
>>To: s10-ev <[email removed]>
>>Sent: Sun, Nov 3, 2013 7:05 am
>>Subject: Re: [S10-EV] Am I too late to the S10-EV party?
>>Wow, only responses from 3 people to my post, I guess that speaks volumes! ?It's disappointing, but understandable. ?I hope no one (of the 3 reading this!) takes this the wrong way, but my take on this is that most of the people on this list aren't really enthusiasts of the vehicle, but rather are EV enthusiast, and just gravitated to this truck because it was the only thing available. ?So naturally, now that there are over a dozen EV offerings at dealerships, there's essentially zero interest in the S10-EV. ?I wonder if the DIY electric car groups are dwindling too as they lose the guys that aren't really engineers or into the EV scene as a hobbyist.? >>?
>>I'm surprised that Don hasn't chimed in as he seems to be one of the few guys that seems to be an actual enthusiast of the truck itself and sounds like he may end up owning every last one of 'em!
>>?
>>Tom
>>?
>>_______________________________________________
>>S10-EV mailing list
>>[email removed]
>>http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
>>=
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>S10-EV mailing list
>>[email removed]
>>http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
>
>_______________________________________________
>S10-EV mailing list
>[email removed]
>http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>S10-EV mailing list
>[email removed]
>http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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>[email removed]
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