S10-EV Mailing List Archive

Hello All, It seems we may have come to an impasse..with our S-10
Any help and advise will be greatly appreciated let me give some background to our challenge We have a pre-existing condition of having battery number two slightly stronger than the rest which when charging can create a difference of greater the .7 volts which causes an E2 fault. Before purchasing a tech 2, Jeff Thomas was kind enough to send us one of his and even came up himself!!!! And Bill Palter was always generous with his time and clearing our faults....on the truck ;-) Since we have had a tech 2 it seems we have been using it quite a bit, getting an E2 is no longer the scary proposition it used to be....
but at the moment we can't seem to get the s-10 to charge for more than a minute before it faults... So we:
1)clear the DTC's, 2)unplug the high voltage connection 3)wait fifteen minutes 4)plug high voltage and try charging again. problem is the difference between battery 2 and 4 even before charging begins is .7+ volts
so it faults after charging for a few minutes. When Jeff Thomas came up he put the truck in "safe charging mode" if i remember correctly.. which allowed a slower charge at a "lower rate".
Does anyone know any other way to charge while overcoming the voltage difference which causes the fault?
Is there a way of increasing the allowed voltage difference between the two batteries using a tech2? the longer this goes on the more difficult it gets..getting a 1-5 minutes of charge every 20minutes even if we spend the whole night may not get us caught up... Thanks again for any suggestions or advise,
Rayan please feel free to call or email me directly as well...
[email removed]
650-723-5018 work
650-704-8823 cel >_______________________________________________
>S10-EV mailing list
>[email removed]
>http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev

I have had similar problems and here are my "cures": 1) put on the AC to max and to the coldest blue setting.
also put on the lights on the truck.
The more amps diverted away from charging the batteries (while charging), the lower the voltage spread between max and min. batteries. 2) Use the protocol of Don (in Portland) for cycling the batteries.
I was able to reduce the voltage spread by (my version of Don's protocol):
a) drive the truck down to Noon and then park by the charger.
b) leave the truck ignition "on" and put on the AC max and put lights on.
c) let the batteries drain until the needle get into the red.
d) put 2 amp charger on aux. battery.
d) turn off AC but leave lights and fan on until needle gets to bottom of red.
e) plug in paddle and charge, remove battery charger, and charge to full.
f) repeat this process at least 5 or 6 times and the voltage spread will reduce each time. I now do this procedure once per week and it really helps.
Don suggests once per month after getting it all back in shape. You can get more nuanced if you have a tech tool. I do not. Don can fill you in.
It seems to work for getting rid of the E2 due to voltage spread. Stephen in Oakland On Oct 4, 2011, at 4:49 PM, Rayan Ghazal wrote: > Hello All,
> > It seems we may have come to an impasse..with our S-10
> Any help and advise will be greatly appreciated
> > let me give some background to our challenge
> > We have a pre-existing condition of having battery number two slightly stronger than the rest which when charging can create a difference of greater the .7 volts which causes an E2 fault.
> > Before purchasing a tech 2, Jeff Thomas was kind enough to send us one of his and even came up himself!!!!
> > And Bill Palter was always generous with his time and clearing our faults....on the truck ;-)
> > Since we have had a tech 2 it seems we have been using it quite a bit, getting an E2 is no longer the scary proposition it used to be....
> but at the moment we can't seem to get the s-10 to charge for more than a minute before it faults...
> > So we:
> 1)clear the DTC's, > 2)unplug the high voltage connection > 3)wait fifteen minutes > 4)plug high voltage and try charging again.
> > problem is the difference between battery 2 and 4 even before charging begins is .7+ volts
> so it faults after charging for a few minutes.
> > When Jeff Thomas came up he put the truck in "safe charging mode" if i remember correctly.. which allowed a slower charge at a "lower rate".
> Does anyone know any other way to charge while overcoming the voltage difference which causes the fault?
> Is there a way of increasing the allowed voltage difference between the two batteries using a tech2?
> > the longer this goes on the more difficult it gets..getting a 1-5 minutes of charge every 20minutes even if we spend the whole night may not get us caught up...
> > Thanks again for any suggestions or advise,
> Rayan
> > please feel free to call or email me directly as well...
> [email removed]
> 650-723-5018 work
> 650-704-8823 cel
> > > > >> _______________________________________________
>> S10-EV mailing list
>> [email removed]
>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
> > _______________________________________________
> S10-EV mailing list
> [email removed]
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev

Hi Stephen, Thank you for your response,
The AC, lights and radio I have tried before and does seem to help a bit... But I was not familiar with Don's protocol for cycling the batteries.
Are you (or Don) proposing to do this now? If you are I am worried that if I run down the batteries and it still faults then I have even fewer options available to me.
At this point I have "1.4" hours to a full charge. We have been away for a week and even with help from friends and family who charged the truck daily, once they got an e2, there was not much they could do.
And since the general consensus is not to leave the truck plugged in continuously due to previous concerns with fire there are not too many options. We will persist and try our best. Thank you again, Rayan Ghazal ----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Weitz" <[email removed]>
To: "Rayan Ghazal" <[email removed]>
Cc: [email removed]
Sent: Tuesday, October 4, 2011 6:02:10 PM
Subject: Re: [S10-EV] E2 and battery voltage differentiation I have had similar problems and here are my "cures": 1) put on the AC to max and to the coldest blue setting.
also put on the lights on the truck.
The more amps diverted away from charging the batteries (while charging), the lower the voltage spread between max and min. batteries. 2) Use the protocol of Don (in Portland) for cycling the batteries.
I was able to reduce the voltage spread by (my version of Don's protocol):
a) drive the truck down to Noon and then park by the charger.
b) leave the truck ignition "on" and put on the AC max and put lights on.
c) let the batteries drain until the needle get into the red.
d) put 2 amp charger on aux. battery.
d) turn off AC but leave lights and fan on until needle gets to bottom of red.
e) plug in paddle and charge, remove battery charger, and charge to full.
f) repeat this process at least 5 or 6 times and the voltage spread will reduce each time. I now do this procedure once per week and it really helps.
Don suggests once per month after getting it all back in shape. You can get more nuanced if you have a tech tool. I do not. Don can fill you in.
It seems to work for getting rid of the E2 due to voltage spread. Stephen in Oakland On Oct 4, 2011, at 4:49 PM, Rayan Ghazal wrote: > Hello All,
> > It seems we may have come to an impasse..with our S-10
> Any help and advise will be greatly appreciated
> > let me give some background to our challenge
> > We have a pre-existing condition of having battery number two slightly stronger than the rest which when charging can create a difference of greater the .7 volts which causes an E2 fault.
> > Before purchasing a tech 2, Jeff Thomas was kind enough to send us one of his and even came up himself!!!!
> > And Bill Palter was always generous with his time and clearing our faults....on the truck ;-)
> > Since we have had a tech 2 it seems we have been using it quite a bit, getting an E2 is no longer the scary proposition it used to be....
> but at the moment we can't seem to get the s-10 to charge for more than a minute before it faults...
> > So we:
> 1)clear the DTC's, > 2)unplug the high voltage connection > 3)wait fifteen minutes > 4)plug high voltage and try charging again.
> > problem is the difference between battery 2 and 4 even before charging begins is .7+ volts
> so it faults after charging for a few minutes.
> > When Jeff Thomas came up he put the truck in "safe charging mode" if i remember correctly.. which allowed a slower charge at a "lower rate".
> Does anyone know any other way to charge while overcoming the voltage difference which causes the fault?
> Is there a way of increasing the allowed voltage difference between the two batteries using a tech2?
> > the longer this goes on the more difficult it gets..getting a 1-5 minutes of charge every 20minutes even if we spend the whole night may not get us caught up...
> > Thanks again for any suggestions or advise,
> Rayan
> > please feel free to call or email me directly as well...
> [email removed]
> 650-723-5018 work
> 650-704-8823 cel
> > > > >> _______________________________________________
>> S10-EV mailing list
>> [email removed]
>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
> > _______________________________________________
> S10-EV mailing list
> [email removed]
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev

Sounds exactly like my problems.
It turned out one of my packs had a short that was causing the voltage diff
and the E2.
You should consider conditioning a new battery and replacing your bad pack,
which seems to be #2. Pv
On Oct 4, 2011 8:59 PM, "Stephen Weitz" <[email removed]> wrote:
> I have had similar problems and here are my "cures":
>
> 1) put on the AC to max and to the coldest blue setting.
> also put on the lights on the truck.
> The more amps diverted away from charging the batteries (while charging),
the lower the voltage spread between max and min. batteries.
>
> 2) Use the protocol of Don (in Portland) for cycling the batteries.
> I was able to reduce the voltage spread by (my version of Don's protocol):
> a) drive the truck down to Noon and then park by the charger.
> b) leave the truck ignition "on" and put on the AC max and put lights on.
> c) let the batteries drain until the needle get into the red.
> d) put 2 amp charger on aux. battery.
> d) turn off AC but leave lights and fan on until needle gets to bottom of
red.
> e) plug in paddle and charge, remove battery charger, and charge to full.
> f) repeat this process at least 5 or 6 times and the voltage spread will
reduce each time.
>
> I now do this procedure once per week and it really helps.
> Don suggests once per month after getting it all back in shape.
>
> You can get more nuanced if you have a tech tool. I do not.
>
> Don can fill you in.
> It seems to work for getting rid of the E2 due to voltage spread.
>
> Stephen in Oakland
>
>
> On Oct 4, 2011, at 4:49 PM, Rayan Ghazal wrote:
>
>> Hello All,
>>
>> It seems we may have come to an impasse..with our S-10
>> Any help and advise will be greatly appreciated
>>
>> let me give some background to our challenge
>>
>> We have a pre-existing condition of having battery number two slightly
stronger than the rest which when charging can create a difference of
greater the .7 volts which causes an E2 fault.
>>
>> Before purchasing a tech 2, Jeff Thomas was kind enough to send us one of
his and even came up himself!!!!
>>
>> And Bill Palter was always generous with his time and clearing our
faults....on the truck ;-)
>>
>> Since we have had a tech 2 it seems we have been using it quite a bit,
getting an E2 is no longer the scary proposition it used to be....
>> but at the moment we can't seem to get the s-10 to charge for more than a
minute before it faults...
>>
>> So we:
>> 1)clear the DTC's,
>> 2)unplug the high voltage connection
>> 3)wait fifteen minutes
>> 4)plug high voltage and try charging again.
>>
>> problem is the difference between battery 2 and 4 even before charging
begins is .7+ volts
>> so it faults after charging for a few minutes.
>>
>> When Jeff Thomas came up he put the truck in "safe charging mode" if i
remember correctly.. which allowed a slower charge at a "lower rate".
>> Does anyone know any other way to charge while overcoming the voltage
difference which causes the fault?
>> Is there a way of increasing the allowed voltage difference between the
two batteries using a tech2?
>>
>> the longer this goes on the more difficult it gets..getting a 1-5 minutes
of charge every 20minutes even if we spend the whole night may not get us
caught up...
>>
>> Thanks again for any suggestions or advise,
>> Rayan
>>
>> please feel free to call or email me directly as well...
>> [email removed]
>> 650-723-5018 work
>> 650-704-8823 cel
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> S10-EV mailing list
>>> [email removed]
>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> S10-EV mailing list
>> [email removed]
>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> S10-EV mailing list
> [email removed]
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/private/s10-ev/attachments/20111005/783444be/attachment.html>

Thank you Paul and Ryan, I will definitely have to consider the medium and long term solutions very closely, and with the resources available from the list, I can be confident to come up with a solution that will work. At this juncture, I will continue to try to charge slowly to get the batteries leveled out.
Once they get a full charge they seem to behave better, especially with more exercise.
Being away for the week in this case was a big contributor to bat 2 & 4 getting so much separation. Does anyone locally have a convenience charger, the lower charging level the more stable the voltages seem to be. Having all the accessories on definitely helps but at this point it gets me an extra couple of minutes of charging. Thank you again,
Rayan On Oct 5, 2011, at 8:11 AM, Paul Peavyhouse <[email removed]> wrote: > Sounds exactly like my problems.
> It turned out one of my packs had a short that was causing the voltage diff and the E2.
> You should consider conditioning a new battery and replacing your bad pack, which seems to be #2.
> > Pv
> > On Oct 4, 2011 8:59 PM, "Stephen Weitz" <[email removed]> wrote:
> > I have had similar problems and here are my "cures":
> > > > 1) put on the AC to max and to the coldest blue setting.
> > also put on the lights on the truck.
> > The more amps diverted away from charging the batteries (while charging), the lower the voltage spread between max and min. batteries.
> > > > 2) Use the protocol of Don (in Portland) for cycling the batteries.
> > I was able to reduce the voltage spread by (my version of Don's protocol):
> > a) drive the truck down to Noon and then park by the charger.
> > b) leave the truck ignition "on" and put on the AC max and put lights on.
> > c) let the batteries drain until the needle get into the red.
> > d) put 2 amp charger on aux. battery.
> > d) turn off AC but leave lights and fan on until needle gets to bottom of red.
> > e) plug in paddle and charge, remove battery charger, and charge to full.
> > f) repeat this process at least 5 or 6 times and the voltage spread will reduce each time.
> > > > I now do this procedure once per week and it really helps.
> > Don suggests once per month after getting it all back in shape.
> > > > You can get more nuanced if you have a tech tool. I do not.
> > > > Don can fill you in.
> > It seems to work for getting rid of the E2 due to voltage spread.
> > > > Stephen in Oakland
> > > > > > On Oct 4, 2011, at 4:49 PM, Rayan Ghazal wrote:
> > > >> Hello All,
> >> > >> It seems we may have come to an impasse..with our S-10
> >> Any help and advise will be greatly appreciated
> >> > >> let me give some background to our challenge
> >> > >> We have a pre-existing condition of having battery number two slightly stronger than the rest which when charging can create a difference of greater the .7 volts which causes an E2 fault.
> >> > >> Before purchasing a tech 2, Jeff Thomas was kind enough to send us one of his and even came up himself!!!!
> >> > >> And Bill Palter was always generous with his time and clearing our faults....on the truck ;-)
> >> > >> Since we have had a tech 2 it seems we have been using it quite a bit, getting an E2 is no longer the scary proposition it used to be....
> >> but at the moment we can't seem to get the s-10 to charge for more than a minute before it faults...
> >> > >> So we:
> >> 1)clear the DTC's, > >> 2)unplug the high voltage connection > >> 3)wait fifteen minutes > >> 4)plug high voltage and try charging again.
> >> > >> problem is the difference between battery 2 and 4 even before charging begins is .7+ volts
> >> so it faults after charging for a few minutes.
> >> > >> When Jeff Thomas came up he put the truck in "safe charging mode" if i remember correctly.. which allowed a slower charge at a "lower rate".
> >> Does anyone know any other way to charge while overcoming the voltage difference which causes the fault?
> >> Is there a way of increasing the allowed voltage difference between the two batteries using a tech2?
> >> > >> the longer this goes on the more difficult it gets..getting a 1-5 minutes of charge every 20minutes even if we spend the whole night may not get us caught up...
> >> > >> Thanks again for any suggestions or advise,
> >> Rayan
> >> > >> please feel free to call or email me directly as well...
> >> [email removed]
> >> 650-723-5018 work
> >> 650-704-8823 cel
> >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> S10-EV mailing list
> >>> [email removed]
> >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
> >> > >> _______________________________________________
> >> S10-EV mailing list
> >> [email removed]
> >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > S10-EV mailing list
> > [email removed]
> > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/private/s10-ev/attachments/20111005/f1383a7e/attachment.htm>

Hello Rayan Yes a NiMH pack can get way out of balance if it is not used on a regular basis. Also all these packs are not working with their full capacity, and are a combination of modules out of different EV1s. Its about a perfect storm for balance problems, and any sitting around just increases the differences. What you need to do is perform a good number of conditioning discharges. Most likely at least five to ten and maybe even more. I would recommend you continue until you no longer see a gain in amp hours. Top of charge balancing does not work very well even with a lower charge rate. It gets the voltage a little closer but at a greater cost to pack life, and with poorer results then combining pack conditioning with full charges. The easiest way to d this is to drive to the 12 or 1 on the SOC or where ever your pack voltage starts getting soft. I consider soft voltages when a 50 amp load starts to bring your pack voltage under 350 volts. A quick reference to this mark would be the large mark on the voltage gauge between 300 and 420 volts. This is usually near this range. On the power use gauge the large mark on the right between zero and 100 percent which seems to be fairly close to 50 amp load in most trucks. The gauges are not very accurate and vary from truck to truck a bit so this is just a rough guide. When you reach this point or less park in front of your charger. Turn on your key and turn on the heat pump by using either the air conditioning or the heater. Use the lowest setting which with heat would be the dial all the way to the left in the blue. You have to push the heat button on the dash for the heat pump to come on if your using heat. If you use the air put the dial all the way to the right in the red. The load by either should be around 3 amps. If you use either setting on high the load will be between 6 to 8 amps. The key on with nothing else on is one to one and a half amps. The reason you want to use the lowest setting? Is not a simple short answer but I will try to make it short. One is because of the NiMH chemistry and how it responds to charging and discharging. Another is difference in resistance is less of a factor with a lower load. Your goal is to balance the pack and increase capacity. Both will happen performing NiMH conditioning cycles. Your best results will be with a lower load. With a lower load, modules that have less capacity, will maintain their voltages to a lower SOC they could not normally be taken to. In a lower SOC even a 3 amp load will have some modules dropping out. I then have used the key on to draw a one amp load so the low modules can handle the load and fully discharge as far as possible in the truck. So after you start the discharge, you want to put a 10 amp automatic battery charger on your 12 volt accessory battery. If you don't unless you sit there and watch you will end up killing your accessory battery. When the truck BMS disengages the DC to DC your 12 volt system will then be getting all its power from your accessory battery. It only takes a short time before it is completely drained to zero volts. Also another benefit is the charger will lessen the load on the DC to DC. Which is a good for the DC to DC, and the load on the pack is slightly reduced which enables you to perform a deeper discharge. The truck will run the heat pump, until either your pack is all in a very low SOC, or one or more modules start losing cells. This is the tricky part because not one size fits all here. If you lost cells and you continue to run a load. This would be the same as taking a zero volt module and hooking up a charger in reverse. You would never do that because it would destroy the module. This is also what happens when your driving and you lose a cell except it is then 50 or 150 amps. This is why you should never drive with the batt life light on. You really don't want to take an Ovonic module down below 11 volts if you can avoid doing so. You can not see cell voltages even with a Tech2, but if a module all of a sudden starts falling off quickly from the rest, its a fairly safe bet your losing a cell. A quick one volt difference is a for sure sign you lost a cell so I would keep an eye on that. While the cell might be bad continuing to run a load on the zero volt cell just might finish it off. Your pack is only going to be as good as your worst cell. When the truck shuts down, you may, or may not need a Tech2 to clear the codes. On some trucks you have to clear the codes, and disconnect the accessory battery. On other trucks all you need to do is just put in the paddle. You want to let the truck charge to 100%. Do not stop charging to drive and finish the charge later. The rate of Magne charge is not ideal for conditioning, but you will still see good results. If you do need to lower the rate of charge, you can either use the heat pump to the cab, or to the pack using the Tech2. I would not bother to use the headlamps the amount of energy there is not a factor. After one or two conditioning cycles you should not have to reduce the rate of charge. The module voltages usually tighten up if you can get the pack into a lower state of charge. Using the Tech2 tool you can count the amp hours in and out and note your progress. All the above only applies to the NiMH chemistry. You would not want to do this type of conditioning with lead or LifePo4. Also you have to keep in mind this is not a fix for a bad cell with run away voltage. If you have a module that is near the rest of the pack. Then upon charging it quickly shoots up that is not a balance problem. You have a module that needs to be removed ASAP. Your taking a chance of having major event with either driving or charging it. I have never been able to get a convenience charger to work on a NiMH truck. I know there was one person on the list that sold their truck that could but its not for my lack of trying. I tried a several different convenience chargers on several different trucks and just never could get them to work. They usually start up but soon quickly shut down. This is without the heat pump cooling the pack. If the heat pump comes on that is more power then the convenience charger rating. I would highly recommend anyone with a NiMH pack to perform a few conditioning discharges. My only concern is that someone knows the difference between a module being out of balance and a cell voltage running away. Its not hard to spot the difference and the truck will usually shut down. Its the 5 amp one hour maintenance charge where the truck BMS lacks a proper algorithm. Also don't just disconnect the accessory battery to reset the SOC to gain capacity. Yes it will do that but it will also cook your pack and it is only a short term gain. If you want better and longer lasting performance using conditioning. However don't let the truck go into the one hour maintenance charge. If you do and are using a Tech2 and watching the voltages I would pull the paddle at 16.3 volts. If you have modules that are more then two tenths of a volt apart then perform another conditioning cycle. Use only the top of charge as much as is required to balance the pack. Hope this helps Don In a message dated 10/5/2011 2:04:20 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [email removed] writes: Thank you Paul and Ryan, I will definitely have to consider the medium and long term solutions very closely, and with the resources available from the list, I can be confident to come up with a solution that will work. At this juncture, I will continue to try to charge slowly to get the batteries leveled out.
Once they get a full charge they seem to behave better, especially with more exercise.
Being away for the week in this case was a big contributor to bat 2 & 4 getting so much separation. Does anyone locally have a convenience charger, the lower charging level the more stable the voltages seem to be. Having all the accessories on definitely helps but at this point it gets me an extra couple of minutes of charging. Thank you again,
Rayan On Oct 5, 2011, at 8:11 AM, Paul Peavyhouse <[email removed] (mailto:[email removed]) > wrote: Sounds exactly like my problems.
It turned out one of my packs had a short that was causing the voltage diff and the E2.
You should consider conditioning a new battery and replacing your bad pack, which seems to be #2. Pv On Oct 4, 2011 8:59 PM, "Stephen Weitz" <[email removed] (mailto:[email removed]) > wrote:
> I have had similar problems and here are my "cures":
> > 1) put on the AC to max and to the coldest blue setting.
> also put on the lights on the truck.
> The more amps diverted away from charging the batteries (while charging), the lower the voltage spread between max and min. batteries.
> > 2) Use the protocol of Don (in Portland) for cycling the batteries.
> I was able to reduce the voltage spread by (my version of Don's protocol):
> a) drive the truck down to Noon and then park by the charger.
> b) leave the truck ignition "on" and put on the AC max and put lights on.
> c) let the batteries drain until the needle get into the red.
> d) put 2 amp charger on aux. battery.
> d) turn off AC but leave lights and fan on until needle gets to bottom of red.
> e) plug in paddle and charge, remove battery charger, and charge to full.
> f) repeat this process at least 5 or 6 times and the voltage spread will reduce each time.
> > I now do this procedure once per week and it really helps.
> Don suggests once per month after getting it all back in shape.
> > You can get more nuanced if you have a tech tool. I do not.
> > Don can fill you in.
> It seems to work for getting rid of the E2 due to voltage spread.
> > Stephen in Oakland
> > > On Oct 4, 2011, at 4:49 PM, Rayan Ghazal wrote:
> >> Hello All,
>> >> It seems we may have come to an impasse..with our S-10
>> Any help and advise will be greatly appreciated
>> >> let me give some background to our challenge
>> >> We have a pre-existing condition of having battery number two slightly stronger than the rest which when charging can create a difference of greater the .7 volts which causes an E2 fault.
>> >> Before purchasing a tech 2, Jeff Thomas was kind enough to send us one of his and even came up himself!!!!
>> >> And Bill Palter was always generous with his time and clearing our faults....on the truck ;-)
>> >> Since we have had a tech 2 it seems we have been using it quite a bit, getting an E2 is no longer the scary proposition it used to be....
>> but at the moment we can't seem to get the s-10 to charge for more than a minute before it faults...
>> >> So we:
>> 1)clear the DTC's, >> 2)unplug the high voltage connection >> 3)wait fifteen minutes >> 4)plug high voltage and try charging again.
>> >> problem is the difference between battery 2 and 4 even before charging begins is .7+ volts
>> so it faults after charging for a few minutes.
>> >> When Jeff Thomas came up he put the truck in "safe charging mode" if i remember correctly.. which allowed a slower charge at a "lower rate".
>> Does anyone know any other way to charge while overcoming the voltage difference which causes the fault?
>> Is there a way of increasing the allowed voltage difference between the two batteries using a tech2?
>> >> the longer this goes on the more difficult it gets..getting a 1-5 minutes of charge every 20minutes even if we spend the whole night may not get us caught up...
>> >> Thanks again for any suggestions or advise,
>> Rayan
>> >> please feel free to call or email me directly as well...
>> [email removed] (mailto:[email removed]) >> 650-723-5018 work
>> 650-704-8823 cel
>> -------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/private/s10-ev/attachments/20111005/fa255a69/attachment-0001.html>

After I sent the last post I was reminded by the cold weather that just hit us here with first snow of the year on Mount Hood. I should have also stated the 350 volts with a 50 amp load is with the pack at around 75 degrees. Its that time of year again at least here when just charging is not going to create enough heat to keep a the pack warm. I bought a heated door mat for around 70 dollars that I plan on heating the bottom of the tray with. It you drop the pack temperature the performance decreases greatly. If you go under 50 degrees the voltage sag under load is huge. As the resistance increases causing less voltage it requires a greater amp load. This always seems to cause one or two module cells that were doing good enough to get by in the summer require replacement for winter. Don
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/private/s10-ev/attachments/20111006/f2b6c3e6/attachment.html>

Just throwing out some thoughts on charging...
I have a 97 lead-acid truck so I'm not familiar with the NiMH batteries. However, I did have to deal with some charging issues. Since the Panasonic's are not available, I installed 12V/75AH AGM batteries designed for UPS systems. One of the cautions was to charge slowly and never charge over 13.6 Volts. So I installed a Zener Diode Regulator on each battery with a clamping voltage of 13.8 volts. (closest I could get). I now have 7K miles on the pack with no issues. I never go over 25 miles and don't get close to 12 O'Clock on the SOC, so maybe I'm not stressing my pack at all, but it's working for me. So couldn't you install the regulators on the NiMH batteries to limit the good ones but allow the not-so-good ones to catch up? I have a web site that explains the way to choose your clamping voltage here, _http://www.reuk.co.uk/Zener-Diode-Voltage-Regulator.htm_ (http://www.reuk.co.uk/Zener-Diode-Voltage-Regulator.htm) I can also tilt my bed and remove the top of the battery box for access. I can actually remove all 26 batteries without dropping the box. So accessibility is not an issue for me. However, if I had to drop my pack to check or charge a battery, I would consider running a pos. & neg. lead from each battery to a terminal block outside of the box. (at least 14 gauge wire). This would allow you to check or charge up a single battery. You could also bring back a NiMH pack that has dropped below charging voltage without dropping the box.
Kevin In a message dated 10/5/2011 8:19:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email removed] writes: Hello Rayan Yes a NiMH pack can get way out of balance if it is not used on a regular basis. Also all these packs are not working with their full capacity, and are a combination of modules out of different EV1s. Its about a perfect storm for balance problems, and any sitting around just increases the differences. What you need to do is perform a good number of conditioning discharges. Most likely at least five to ten and maybe even more. I would recommend you continue until you no longer see a gain in amp hours. Top of charge balancing does not work very well even with a lower charge rate. It gets the voltage a little closer but at a greater cost to pack life, and with poorer results then combining pack conditioning with full charges. The easiest way to d this is to drive to the 12 or 1 on the SOC or where ever your pack voltage starts getting soft. I consider soft voltages when a 50 amp load starts to bring your pack voltage under 350 volts. A quick reference to this mark would be the large mark on the voltage gauge between 300 and 420 volts. This is usually near this range. On the power use gauge the large mark on the right between zero and 100 percent which seems to be fairly close to 50 amp load in most trucks. The gauges are not very accurate and vary from truck to truck a bit so this is just a rough guide. When you reach this point or less park in front of your charger. Turn on your key and turn on the heat pump by using either the air conditioning or the heater. Use the lowest setting which with heat would be the dial all the way to the left in the blue. You have to push the heat button on the dash for the heat pump to come on if your using heat. If you use the air put the dial all the way to the right in the red. The load by either should be around 3 amps. If you use either setting on high the load will be between 6 to 8 amps. The key on with nothing else on is one to one and a half amps. The reason you want to use the lowest setting? Is not a simple short answer but I will try to make it short. One is because of the NiMH chemistry and how it responds to charging and discharging. Another is difference in resistance is less of a factor with a lower load. Your goal is to balance the pack and increase capacity. Both will happen performing NiMH conditioning cycles. Your best results will be with a lower load. With a lower load, modules that have less capacity, will maintain their voltages to a lower SOC they could not normally be taken to. In a lower SOC even a 3 amp load will have some modules dropping out. I then have used the key on to draw a one amp load so the low modules can handle the load and fully discharge as far as possible in the truck. So after you start the discharge, you want to put a 10 amp automatic battery charger on your 12 volt accessory battery. If you don't unless you sit there and watch you will end up killing your accessory battery. When the truck BMS disengages the DC to DC your 12 volt system will then be getting all its power from your accessory battery. It only takes a short time before it is completely drained to zero volts. Also another benefit is the charger will lessen the load on the DC to DC. Which is a good for the DC to DC, and the load on the pack is slightly reduced which enables you to perform a deeper discharge. The truck will run the heat pump, until either your pack is all in a very low SOC, or one or more modules start losing cells. This is the tricky part because not one size fits all here. If you lost cells and you continue to run a load. This would be the same as taking a zero volt module and hooking up a charger in reverse. You would never do that because it would destroy the module. This is also what happens when your driving and you lose a cell except it is then 50 or 150 amps. This is why you should never drive with the batt life light on. You really don't want to take an Ovonic module down below 11 volts if you can avoid doing so. You can not see cell voltages even with a Tech2, but if a module all of a sudden starts falling off quickly from the rest, its a fairly safe bet your losing a cell. A quick one volt difference is a for sure sign you lost a cell so I would keep an eye on that. While the cell might be bad continuing to run a load on the zero volt cell just might finish it off. Your pack is only going to be as good as your worst cell. When the truck shuts down, you may, or may not need a Tech2 to clear the codes. On some trucks you have to clear the codes, and disconnect the accessory battery. On other trucks all you need to do is just put in the paddle. You want to let the truck charge to 100%. Do not stop charging to drive and finish the charge later. The rate of Magne charge is not ideal for conditioning, but you will still see good results. If you do need to lower the rate of charge, you can either use the heat pump to the cab, or to the pack using the Tech2. I would not bother to use the headlamps the amount of energy there is not a factor. After one or two conditioning cycles you should not have to reduce the rate of charge. The module voltages usually tighten up if you can get the pack into a lower state of charge. Using the Tech2 tool you can count the amp hours in and out and note your progress. All the above only applies to the NiMH chemistry. You would not want to do this type of conditioning with lead or LifePo4. Also you have to keep in mind this is not a fix for a bad cell with run away voltage. If you have a module that is near the rest of the pack. Then upon charging it quickly shoots up that is not a balance problem. You have a module that needs to be removed ASAP. Your taking a chance of having major event with either driving or charging it. I have never been able to get a convenience charger to work on a NiMH truck. I know there was one person on the list that sold their truck that could but its not for my lack of trying. I tried a several different convenience chargers on several different trucks and just never could get them to work. They usually start up but soon quickly shut down. This is without the heat pump cooling the pack. If the heat pump comes on that is more power then the convenience charger rating. I would highly recommend anyone with a NiMH pack to perform a few conditioning discharges. My only concern is that someone knows the difference between a module being out of balance and a cell voltage running away. Its not hard to spot the difference and the truck will usually shut down. Its the 5 amp one hour maintenance charge where the truck BMS lacks a proper algorithm. Also don't just disconnect the accessory battery to reset the SOC to gain capacity. Yes it will do that but it will also cook your pack and it is only a short term gain. If you want better and longer lasting performance using conditioning. However don't let the truck go into the one hour maintenance charge. If you do and are using a Tech2 and watching the voltages I would pull the paddle at 16.3 volts. If you have modules that are more then two tenths of a volt apart then perform another conditioning cycle. Use only the top of charge as much as is required to balance the pack. Hope this helps Don In a message dated 10/5/2011 2:04:20 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [email removed] writes: Thank you Paul and Ryan, I will definitely have to consider the medium and long term solutions very closely, and with the resources available from the list, I can be confident to come up with a solution that will work. At this juncture, I will continue to try to charge slowly to get the batteries leveled out.
Once they get a full charge they seem to behave better, especially with more exercise.
Being away for the week in this case was a big contributor to bat 2 & 4 getting so much separation. Does anyone locally have a convenience charger, the lower charging level the more stable the voltages seem to be. Having all the accessories on definitely helps but at this point it gets me an extra couple of minutes of charging. Thank you again,
Rayan On Oct 5, 2011, at 8:11 AM, Paul Peavyhouse <[email removed] (mailto:[email removed]) > wrote: Sounds exactly like my problems.
It turned out one of my packs had a short that was causing the voltage diff and the E2.
You should consider conditioning a new battery and replacing your bad pack, which seems to be #2. Pv On Oct 4, 2011 8:59 PM, "Stephen Weitz" <[email removed] (mailto:[email removed]) > wrote:
> I have had similar problems and here are my "cures":
> > 1) put on the AC to max and to the coldest blue setting.
> also put on the lights on the truck.
> The more amps diverted away from charging the batteries (while charging), the lower the voltage spread between max and min. batteries.
> > 2) Use the protocol of Don (in Portland) for cycling the batteries.
> I was able to reduce the voltage spread by (my version of Don's protocol):
> a) drive the truck down to Noon and then park by the charger.
> b) leave the truck ignition "on" and put on the AC max and put lights on.
> c) let the batteries drain until the needle get into the red.
> d) put 2 amp charger on aux. battery.
> d) turn off AC but leave lights and fan on until needle gets to bottom of red.
> e) plug in paddle and charge, remove battery charger, and charge to full.
> f) repeat this process at least 5 or 6 times and the voltage spread will reduce each time.
> > I now do this procedure once per week and it really helps.
> Don suggests once per month after getting it all back in shape.
> > You can get more nuanced if you have a tech tool. I do not.
> > Don can fill you in.
> It seems to work for getting rid of the E2 due to voltage spread.
> > Stephen in Oakland
> > > On Oct 4, 2011, at 4:49 PM, Rayan Ghazal wrote:
> >> Hello All,
>> >> It seems we may have come to an impasse..with our S-10
>> Any help and advise will be greatly appreciated
>> >> let me give some background to our challenge
>> >> We have a pre-existing condition of having battery number two slightly stronger than the rest which when charging can create a difference of greater the .7 volts which causes an E2 fault.
>> >> Before purchasing a tech 2, Jeff Thomas was kind enough to send us one of his and even came up himself!!!!
>> >> And Bill Palter was always generous with his time and clearing our faults....on the truck ;-)
>> >> Since we have had a tech 2 it seems we have been using it quite a bit, getting an E2 is no longer the scary proposition it used to be....
>> but at the moment we can't seem to get the s-10 to charge for more than a minute before it faults...
>> >> So we:
>> 1)clear the DTC's, >> 2)unplug the high voltage connection >> 3)wait fifteen minutes >> 4)plug high voltage and try charging again.
>> >> problem is the difference between battery 2 and 4 even before charging begins is .7+ volts
>> so it faults after charging for a few minutes.
>> >> When Jeff Thomas came up he put the truck in "safe charging mode" if i remember correctly.. which allowed a slower charge at a "lower rate".
>> Does anyone know any other way to charge while overcoming the voltage difference which causes the fault?
>> Is there a way of increasing the allowed voltage difference between the two batteries using a tech2?
>> >> the longer this goes on the more difficult it gets..getting a 1-5 minutes of charge every 20minutes even if we spend the whole night may not get us caught up...
>> >> Thanks again for any suggestions or advise,
>> Rayan
>> >> please feel free to call or email me directly as well...
>> [email removed] (mailto:[email removed]) >> 650-723-5018 work
>> 650-704-8823 cel
>> _______________________________________________
S10-EV mailing list
[email removed]
http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev -------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/private/s10-ev/attachments/20111006/fb68e6fc/attachment.html>