S10-EV Mailing List Archive

Hi all, My brother and I just picked up a '97 EV S10. The story is, it was owned by a company that was testing different batteries in the truck. It has 15k miles on it. We took it for $2000. Here's the deal: It has no batteries. They replaced the original charger with a programmable Zivan. The DC-DC converter that powers the AC and power steering is burned out. Otherwise, it is all stock and in great condition. Here are my questions: - What batteries have you all found that are good replacements for the original lead acids? Are there requirements for voltage / current or other factors that I should consider when looking for batteries? - Does anyone know if the DC-DC for power steering/AC is built into the controller, or a separate unit? And, what voltage / current output does it put out? I have more questions, but I'll start with these. thanks!
Noah

Hi Noah,
Welcome to the group. I have a Lead Acid 97 S10E. If you haven't done so
already, go to the archives and read up on what others have done. I used
Deka Unigy 12AVR-75 batteries. Are they a good choice? Time will tell I
guess. I did have 3 bad batteries. I replaced them and now have 5K miles
on the pack. So far, so good. I installed a Zener diode regulator on
each battery to prevent over-charging from the paddle charger and they
seem to be working. I'm happy to say that I haven't had any problem with
the power steering yet, but I know several have. Is your intent to get
the truck back to original? Kevin McMullin -----Original Message-----
From: [email removed]
[mailto:[email removed]] On Behalf Of Noah Podolefsky
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 10:35 PM
To: [email removed]
Subject: [S10-EV] questions about EV S10 Hi all, My brother and I just picked up a '97 EV S10. The story is, it was owned
by a company that was testing different batteries in the truck. It has
15k miles on it. We took it for $2000. Here's the deal: It has no batteries. They replaced the original charger
with a programmable Zivan. The DC-DC converter that powers the AC and
power steering is burned out. Otherwise, it is all stock and in great
condition. Here are my questions: - What batteries have you all found that are good replacements for the
original lead acids? Are there requirements for voltage / current or
other factors that I should consider when looking for batteries? - Does anyone know if the DC-DC for power steering/AC is built into the
controller, or a separate unit? And, what voltage / current output does
it put out? I have more questions, but I'll start with these. thanks!
Noah
_______________________________________________
S10-EV mailing list
[email removed]
http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev

Hi Guys, If you had read my posts last week, Noah is my brother so perhaps you
can draw the connection between his questions and mine since it's the
same truck. There is one thing that I was mistaken about regarding
the truck. They thought the truck had 1,000, but it turns out when
Noah arrived there it had 15,000. Not a big deal. I think Noah and I are trying to walk a careful line of trying to keep
the truck as fairly original and complete because we both think it's
an important piece of automotive history. However, it's useless if
you can't drive the thing either. So since we doesn't have the
original charger or any batteries, we will have to make some
adjustments. Personally I would love to get my hands on a paddle
charger (even if it doesn't work) just to have with the truck for
demonstration. I've already been approached by some professors to
bring it to the University for them to show their students. I think
it would be great when we use the truck for awareness and education. When it comes to electronics, I will 100% concede to my brother as the
far more knowledgeable of the two of us. I have somewhat more
experience with working on ICE and doing body work. So between us we
make a good team. He's the brains, and I'm... well... hmm... I'm
cheap labor. Thanks everyone for your advice and guidance so far!
:Isaac: On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 7:48 AM, McMullin, Kevin <[email removed]> wrote:
> Hi Noah,
> Welcome to the group. I have a Lead Acid 97 S10E. If you haven't done so
> already, go to the archives and read up on what others have done. I used
> Deka Unigy 12AVR-75 batteries. Are they a good choice? Time will tell I
> guess. I did have 3 bad batteries. I replaced them and now have 5K miles
> on the pack. So far, so good. I installed a Zener diode regulator on
> each battery to prevent over-charging from the paddle charger and they
> seem to be working. I'm happy to say that I haven't had any problem with
> the power steering yet, but I know several have. Is your intent to get
> the truck back to original?
>
>
> Kevin McMullin
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email removed]
> [mailto:[email removed]] On Behalf Of Noah Podolefsky
> Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 10:35 PM
> To: [email removed]
> Subject: [S10-EV] questions about EV S10
>
> Hi all,
>
> My brother and I just picked up a '97 EV S10. The story is, it was owned
> by a company ?that was testing different batteries in the truck. It has
> 15k miles on it. We took it for $2000.
>
> Here's the deal: It has no batteries. They replaced the original charger
> with a programmable Zivan. The DC-DC converter that powers the AC and
> power steering is burned out. Otherwise, it is all stock ?and in great
> condition.
>
> Here are my questions:
>
> - What batteries have you all found that are good replacements for the
> original lead acids? Are there requirements for voltage / current or
> other factors that I should consider when looking for batteries?
>
> - Does anyone know if the DC-DC for power steering/AC is built into the
> controller, or a separate unit? And, what voltage / current output does
> it put out?
>
> I have more questions, but I'll start with these.
>
> thanks!
> Noah
> _______________________________________________
> S10-EV mailing list
> [email removed]
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
> _______________________________________________
> S10-EV mailing list
> [email removed]
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
>

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Hi, Noah-- Welcome to the learning center. On Nov 15, 2010, at 7:35 PM, Noah Podolefsky wrote:
> - Does anyone know if the DC-DC for power steering/AC is built into the controller, or a separate unit? And, what voltage / current output does it put out? The PSM (Power Steering Module) and APCM (Accessory Power Control Module) are two separate modules bolted to the lower backside of the PIM (Power Inverter Module -- what the uninitiated looking under the hood sometimes call "the engine"). PSMs used to cost about $1100 and APCMs $3k-$5K. (The prices went up right after the release of the movie, "Who Killed The Electric Car?") They both used the same high-power ceramic IC which was prone to failure, so both had a half-life (averaging over the fleet of 40 or so S-10Es) of less than ten years. Nowadays, I doubt GM has any more, so you'll probably have to pry one off someone else's truck or make one. Sorry, but I don't know what kind of power the PSM produced. Fortunately, the PSM you can do without. Your upper arms will become beefier while parking, but on the streets, and certainly on the freeway, you don't need power steering. I know a little bit about two APCM functions. The APCM charged the 12V Auxiliary battery from the traction batteries. (Incidentally, APCM failures have been suspected to be caused by aged Auxiliary batteries' drawing too much power for too long. So we developed a rule to replace the Auxiliary battery every year, whether it needs it or not, to conserve APCMs.) Second, the APCM responded to computer control to deliver power to the compressor of the heat transfer system. The compressor runs on variable-frequency AC current 60 to 120 Hz, 3 to 5 amps, about 120V nominal to produce the proper coolant pressures. The variable-frequency synchronous-motor design was probably chosen for weight considerations and for energy efficiency. The heat transfer "accessory" was not optional on the NiMH trucks. If you had NiMH batteries, the computer would insist that the heat transfer system be working when any one of the six thermistors taped to your batteries got above 86? until every one of them was below 75?. The heat transfer system has a solenoid-controlled valve which diverts coolant through a separate evaporator coil to cool the cab at other times. We called this function air conditioning. Of course, if you don't use NiMH batteries, then maybe the heat transfer system is needed only for AC. Replacing the six thermistors with fixed resistors at 72? would fool the computer into thinking that everything's cool down in the battery compartment. The ohms-to-temperature chart is in the book. --Gil

Thanks for the advice Kevin. I noticed those are designed as UPS batteries, so wondering how well they hold up in an EV? I actually found some batteries made by Werker that are designed for mobile applications...very similar to B&B batteries that are made for EV's. They are 12V, 33 Ah. Our plan is to arrange them in 26 parallel sets to make 66 Ah total. http://www.batteriesplus.com/product/32627-WKA12--33C-12-Volt-33Ah-Werker-Battery-with-Female-M6-Terminal/100085-1/102629-SLA-Sealed-Lead-Acid-Batteries/102645-Werker/12V.aspx Put end-to-end, they are almost the exact dimensions of the original Panasonics, just 0.5" or so wider, but I think there was extra space around the original batteries, so the Werkers may fit without modifying the box. I checked with Batteries Plus and they will do a bulk discount, making the total price with local tax $3515. If anyone has opinions or experience with these, I'd really appreciate any feedback. thanks!
Noah On 11/16/2010 6:48 AM, McMullin, Kevin wrote:
> Hi Noah,
> Welcome to the group. I have a Lead Acid 97 S10E. If you haven't done so
> already, go to the archives and read up on what others have done. I used
> Deka Unigy 12AVR-75 batteries. Are they a good choice? Time will tell I
> guess. I did have 3 bad batteries. I replaced them and now have 5K miles
> on the pack. So far, so good. I installed a Zener diode regulator on
> each battery to prevent over-charging from the paddle charger and they
> seem to be working. I'm happy to say that I haven't had any problem with
> the power steering yet, but I know several have. Is your intent to get
> the truck back to original?
>
>
> Kevin McMullin
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email removed]
> [mailto:[email removed]] On Behalf Of Noah Podolefsky
> Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 10:35 PM
> To: [email removed]
> Subject: [S10-EV] questions about EV S10
>
> Hi all,
>
> My brother and I just picked up a '97 EV S10. The story is, it was owned
> by a company that was testing different batteries in the truck. It has
> 15k miles on it. We took it for $2000.
>
> Here's the deal: It has no batteries. They replaced the original charger
> with a programmable Zivan. The DC-DC converter that powers the AC and
> power steering is burned out. Otherwise, it is all stock and in great
> condition.
>
> Here are my questions:
>
> - What batteries have you all found that are good replacements for the
> original lead acids? Are there requirements for voltage / current or
> other factors that I should consider when looking for batteries?
>
> - Does anyone know if the DC-DC for power steering/AC is built into the
> controller, or a separate unit? And, what voltage / current output does
> it put out?
>
> I have more questions, but I'll start with these.
>
> thanks!
> Noah
> _______________________________________________
> S10-EV mailing list
> [email removed]
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev

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Appears to be 21.45 Ah. The full spec sheet can be found here: http://www.shop.emcbattery.com/media/WKA12-33C.pdf Unfortunately, this sheet shows that the full height is actually 7.02" with the connectors...so may not work after all. -Noah On 11/18/2010 7:29 AM, [email removed] wrote:
> What is the 1 hour rating on the Werker cells?
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [S10-EV] questions about EV S10
> From: Noah Podolefsky <[email removed]
> <mailto:[email removed]>>
> Date: Tue, November 16, 2010 1:32 pm
> To: "McMullin, Kevin " <[email removed]
> <mailto:[email removed]>>
> Cc: [email removed] <mailto:[email removed]>
>
> Thanks for the advice Kevin. I noticed those are designed as UPS
> batteries, so wondering how well they hold up in an EV?
>
> I actually found some batteries made by Werker that are designed for
> mobile applications...very similar to B&B batteries that are made for
> EV's. They are 12V, 33 Ah. Our plan is to arrange them in 26 parallel
> sets to make 66 Ah total.
>
> http://www.batteriesplus.com/product/32627-WKA12--33C-12-Volt-33Ah-Werker-Battery-with-Female-M6-Terminal/100085-1/102629-SLA-Sealed-Lead-Acid-Batteries/102645-Werker/12V.aspx
>
> Put end-to-end, they are almost the exact dimensions of the original
> Panasonics, just 0.5" or so wider, but I think there was extra space
> around the original batteries, so the Werkers may fit without
> modifying
> the box. I checked with Batteries Plus and they will do a bulk
> discount,
> making the total price with local tax $3515.
>
> If anyone has opinions or experience with these, I'd really
> appreciate
> any feedback.
>
> thanks!
> Noah
>
>
> On 11/16/2010 6:48 AM, McMullin, Kevin wrote:
> > Hi Noah,
> > Welcome to the group. I have a Lead Acid 97 S10E. If you haven't
> done so
> > already, go to the archives and read up on what others have done.
> I used
> > Deka Unigy 12AVR-75 batteries. Are they a good choice? Time will
> tell I
> > guess. I did have 3 bad batteries. I replaced them and now have
> 5K miles
> > on the pack. So far, so good. I installed a Zener diode regulator on
> > each battery to prevent over-charging from the paddle charger and
> they
> > seem to be working. I'm happy to say that I haven't had any
> problem with
> > the power steering yet, but I know several have. Is your intent
> to get
> > the truck back to original?
> >
> >
> > Kevin McMullin
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [email removed]
> <mailto:[email removed]>
> > [mailto:[email removed]] On Behalf Of Noah
> Podolefsky
> > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 10:35 PM
> > To: [email removed] <mailto:[email removed]>
> > Subject: [S10-EV] questions about EV S10
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > My brother and I just picked up a '97 EV S10. The story is, it
> was owned
> > by a company that was testing different batteries in the truck.
> It has
> > 15k miles on it. We took it for $2000.
> >
> > Here's the deal: It has no batteries. They replaced the original
> charger
> > with a programmable Zivan. The DC-DC converter that powers the AC and
> > power steering is burned out. Otherwise, it is all stock and in great
> > condition.
> >
> > Here are my questions:
> >
> > - What batteries have you all found that are good replacements
> for the
> > original lead acids? Are there requirements for voltage / current or
> > other factors that I should consider when looking for batteries?
> >
> > - Does anyone know if the DC-DC for power steering/AC is built
> into the
> > controller, or a separate unit? And, what voltage / current
> output does
> > it put out?
> >
> > I have more questions, but I'll start with these.
> >
> > thanks!
> > Noah
> > _______________________________________________
> > S10-EV mailing list
> > [email removed] <mailto:[email removed]>
> > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
> _______________________________________________
> S10-EV mailing list
> [email removed] <mailto:[email removed]>
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
>
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Hi Everybody,
Has anybody considered the question of what best to burn in the heaters? When I bought my S10 the heater tank was filled with diesel. I found it very smokey and stinky - not a good image for a vehicle I was trying to promote as good for the environment. I switched to clear kerosene - you can still smell it, but it does not create the stench that diesel seems to. Downside is it is a lot more expensive than diesel. I have been buying it in 2 to 5 gallon containers - have not been able to find it in bulk. Then I have to use hand pump and/or funnel to get it into the truck - a real pain compared to pulling up to a diesel pump at the gas station and filling her up. The little bit I have read indicates diesel might put out more heat than the kerosene (this is not a problem - the heater can easily make it too hot for me as it is). Diesel apparently has more sulfur than kerosene which would account for the stench and make kerosene the environmental choice. Anyone else have any info about this? Richard Poudrier
Salem, OR
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Well, In my garage heater I use K1 kerosene because it's the most
refined and less "smelly" of the options. I haven't looked into the
heater on the S10 as to whether or not it's a suitable solution for
that heater. You need a special container for transporting kerosene
(usually identified as a yellow or blue container). It's also much
cheaper if you buy it at a place that sells propane tanks and other
gases than buying it at a gas station. Cheers,
:Isaac: On Sat, Dec 25, 2010 at 1:07 PM, <[email removed]> wrote:
> Hi Everybody,
> Has anybody considered the question of what best to burn in the heaters?
> When I bought my S10 the heater tank was filled with diesel. I found it very
> smokey and stinky - not a good image for a vehicle I was trying to promote
> as good for the environment. I switched to clear kerosene - you can still
> smell it, but it does not create the stench that diesel seems to. Downside
> is it is a lot more expensive than diesel. I have been buying it in 2 to 5
> gallon containers - have not been able to find it in bulk. Then I have to
> use hand pump and/or funnel to get it into the truck - a real pain compared
> to pulling up to a diesel pump at the gas station and filling her up.
>
> The little bit I have read indicates diesel might put out more heat than the
> kerosene (this is not a problem -? the heater can easily make it too hot for
> me as it is). Diesel apparently has more sulfur than kerosene which would
> account for the stench and make kerosene the environmental choice.
>
> Anyone else have any info about this?
>
> Richard Poudrier
> Salem, OR
>
> _______________________________________________
> S10-EV mailing list
> [email removed]
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
>
>

After my heater died last year, I replaced it and switched to Kerosene. No issues with heat output and yes, much cleaner burning.
Kevin McMullin
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I bought a 5 gallon can of kerosene from Home Depot for home heaters a couple of years ago. It was expensive as I recall about 7 dollars a gallon. It burns very clean compared to diesel the difference is huge. The S-10 heater is very efficient and the 1.6 gallon tank filled last more than one winter in my area. The fuel heater will produce a huge amount of heat when it kicks in. If you can find it number 1 stove oil would be a great replacement for the dirty number 2 diesel or number 2 stove oil. You can use # 1 stove oil in small heaters indoors with good window ventilation. I have also used large space heaters and with number 1 stove oil it could be tolerated. If you used number 2 it was horrible and would even burn your eyes. Number 1 stove oil does not pay road fuel taxes and is used in home furnaces. It is the least expensive and burns far cleaner then diesel. I would highly recommend using number 1 stove oil or Kerosene. From my research it would help extend the life of your heater. The cost of either is very small as your not going to use much of it. The damaged from using diesel is going to end up costing you the price of heater and the labor to replace it. If anyone needs a replacement heater in their S-10 I still have a couple of brand new OEM heaters in the box left. Don Blazer In a message dated 12/25/2010 3:42:36 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, [email removed] writes: After my heater died last year, I replaced it and switched to Kerosene. No issues with heat output and yes, much cleaner burning.
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On that note, the #1 stove oil or kerosene will help prevent gelling in cold weather periods. I had a very old load of #2 diesel in my heater and recently had issues with it gelling when the temps dropped here in portland. I refilled the tank with #1 and my gelling problems have gone away. We do this every winter in cold climates (cutting diesel with kerosene) to keep it from gelling. Thank you for the information Don. -Ryan Dela On Dec 26, 2010, at 1:19 AM, [email removed] wrote: > I bought a 5 gallon can of kerosene from Home Depot for home heaters a couple of years ago. It was expensive as I recall about 7 dollars a gallon. It burns very clean compared to diesel the difference is huge. The S-10 heater is very efficient and the 1.6 gallon tank filled last more than one winter in my area. The fuel heater will produce a huge amount of heat when it kicks in.
> > If you can find it number 1 stove oil would be a great replacement for the dirty number 2 diesel or number 2 stove oil. You can use # 1 stove oil in small heaters indoors with good window ventilation. I have also used large space heaters and with number 1 stove oil it could be tolerated. If you used number 2 it was horrible and would even burn your eyes.
> > Number 1 stove oil does not pay road fuel taxes and is used in home furnaces. It is the least expensive and burns far cleaner then diesel.
> > I would highly recommend using number 1 stove oil or Kerosene. From my research it would help extend the life of your heater. The cost of either is very small as your not going to use much of it. The damaged from using diesel is going to end up costing you the price of heater and the labor to replace it.
> > If anyone needs a replacement heater in their S-10 I still have a couple of brand new OEM heaters in the box left.
> > Don Blazer
> > In a message dated 12/25/2010 3:42:36 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, [email removed] writes:
> After my heater died last year, I replaced it and switched to Kerosene. No issues with heat output and yes, much cleaner burning.
> Kevin McMullin
> > > _______________________________________________
> S10-EV mailing list
> [email removed]
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev -------------- next part --------------
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