S10-EV Mailing List Archive

Hello Naiche First off buying an EV is not much different then buying any other vehicle except for the lack of needing gas. As long as the S-10 meets your usual weekly range requirements your going to love it. I find a small pickup is a perfect around town EV. It can transport up to three persons if needed but two is best. You can also haul close to a thousand pounds of weight. Really a good Costco, Home Depot grocery getter. From the little information you have provided I would say it would be an excellent EV for you as well. The S-10 with the current NiMH batteries is best on hills in a higher SOC. I try to keep the load to 50 or 60 amps when possible. This is much easier to do when you have the pack holding at least 350 volts under load. I have driven well over 50,000 EV miles in several different S-10s. I have sold a few locally after making sure they were working well. The main concern with a NiMH is that the heat pump is in good working order in warmer weather. At 65 degrees and less outside a pack in good condition just about never needs additional cooling If there was one thing I would change in the S-10 is that the BMS not to charge a pack when they exceed 95 degrees. As well as the BMS shutting down charging at the 5 amp rate when a module goes over voltage. Several S-10 drivers have added aftermarket additions because of this. Its been a couple of years but there were a few S-10s that burned up from pack fires. There also was fires in other OEMs EVs so I would not charge any EV in a garage. Best to charge at a charging station that is away from everything else. The chargers are intended for outdoors placement so that is not a problem. If a seller is telling you 20 or 30 miles they are being honest. That is not the information you will get from someone trying to take advantage of you. With the mileage it sounds like you have a bad module or two. New these NiMH trucks could go 90 to 100 miles if driven conservatively. This is on flat ground with no A/C and not fully loaded. No different then an ICE when you load them up and go up hills your miles per gallon goes way down. Best not to go more then 50% DOD per the SOC on the dash. You range should be 40 to 50 miles unless your going 70 miles an hour on the freeway or other uses that raise the loads while driving. If you pay less then 12,000 for this truck it is a bargain. Jeff went completely though his trucks for superior long term service reliability as far as the systems. There is not much one can do with batteries except change them out when needed. I have a complete pack which I doubt you would need. In a worst case replacing all of them would be 4000 dollars. In a best case scenario you would only need one replacement module of 150 dollars. The modules are 11 cells and a single cell can be replaced but to do this the module should not have been charged or discharged for several weeks. You risk damaging all the cells in a module if you don't allow the to sit before removing one. As far as building your own EV you could not build an AC drive EV for 15,000 of this quality. For another 1400 dollars to have a scan tool is a very wise investment. Your going to be able to read a BMS that conversion EVs only dream of having. I have been looking at the Tech2 prices for years and that is a fair price for a working one. I paid 3300 for a new Tech2 so that is less than half the price of a new one. You have come to the right place to get your questions answered. Lots of the list members are very knowledgeable and helpful. Parts unlike some OEM EVs are still available if needed. Fire away with any questions you have. Don From: Naiche Lujan <[email removed] (mailto:[email removed]) >
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Subject: [S10-EV] New member of the list, asking advice
Message: 2
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hello S10 community, I just signed up because I need some advice. There is someone selling their
S10 EV and I'm exploring the possibility of being an S10 owner. I'm curious
to know what is it like? Here is the listing text:
----------------------
I am selling my 1997 S-10EV. It runs perfectly. This was the last of Jeff
Thomas NiMH trucks that he upgraded/sold. I purchased it in August, 2007. I
have driven it daily and not had one problem with it. Comes with 2 chargers
(one portable). It has under 17,000 miles on it. I have kept it garaged the
whole time I've owned it. I can send pictures to anyone interested. I am
selling for best offer over $8,500. I am moving and need to sell soon.
----------------------- While the range has been claimed to be between 45-60 miles, this seller is
saying he only gets 20-30 miles, although he says he lives in Oakland and
drives a lot of hills. Would that mean that the pack is getting older and
losing much of its capacity? I NEED a minimum of 30 miles so I guess I need
to gauge whether or not I would need to invest in new batteries, and if so,
get a sense for how much that would cost. I also heard that there have been issues over the years with the drive
system. The seller recommended I also purchase his scanner diagnostic tool
($1400). He said that that is the only way to know what is wrong with the
car should something happen. My long term plans are to build my own conversion, but as there are so many
changes happening right now, and prices are beginning to drop on high-price
items, it seems like a good idea to have an interim EV so I can get off gas
NOW. Thanks for any advice you can offer. Best,
Naiche -------------- next part --------------
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Naiche,
?
??? What Don said... I was going to respond and saw Don had already done the job.? Definitely get the scan tool ($1400 for a used tool is excellent and a good price for a new one is over $3000).? Someone new to EV's will only get 20-30 miles range.? It takes practive and understanding to know how to get better range.? Jeff used to require buyers go to Phoenix and spend a day or more just learning to drive one properly since it is so critical to the battery life and range.? I don't think it is necessary to elaborate on Don's comments further since he is on target.? The specific EV in question should be a good deal, but any EV is going to be an undertaking.? Best of luck.
?
Paul --- On Sat, 9/4/10, [email removed] <[email removed]> wrote: From: [email removed] <[email removed]>
Subject: [S10-EV] Advise for buying an S-10 EV
To: [email removed]
Date: Saturday, September 4, 2010, 5:42 PM Hello Naiche
?
First off buying an EV is not much different then buying any other vehicle except for the lack of needing gas. As long as the?S-10 meets your usual weekly range requirements your going to love it. I find a small pickup is a perfect around town EV. It can transport up to three persons if needed but two is best. You can also haul close to?a thousand pounds of weight. Really a good Costco, Home Depot grocery getter. From the little information you have provided I would say it would be an excellent EV for you as well.
?
The S-10 with the current NiMH?batteries is best on hills in a higher SOC. I try to keep the load to 50 or 60 amps when possible. This is much easier to do when you have the pack holding at least 350 volts under load.
?
I have driven well over 50,000 EV?miles in several different S-10s. I have sold a few locally after making sure they were working well. The main concern?with a NiMH is?that the?heat pump is in good working order?in warmer weather.?At 65 degrees and less outside a pack in good condition just about never needs additional cooling??If there was one thing I would change in the S-10?is that the?BMS not to charge a pack when they exceed 95 degrees. As well as the BMS shutting down charging at the 5 amp rate when a module goes over voltage. Several S-10 drivers have added aftermarket additions because of this.?Its been a couple of years?but there were a few S-10s that burned up from pack fires. There also was fires in other OEMs EVs so I would not charge any EV in a garage. Best to charge at a charging station that is away from everything else. The chargers are intended for outdoors placement so that is not a problem.
?
If a seller is telling you 20 or 30 miles?they are?being honest. That is not the information you will get from someone trying to take advantage of you. With the mileage it sounds like you have a bad module or two. New these NiMH trucks could go 90 to 100 miles if driven conservatively. This is on flat ground with no A/C and not fully loaded. No different then an ICE when you load them up and go up hills your miles per gallon goes way down. Best not to go more then 50% DOD per the SOC on the dash. You range should be 40 to 50 miles unless your going 70 miles an hour on the freeway or other uses that raise the loads while driving. ?
If you pay less then 12,000 for this truck it is a bargain. Jeff went completely?though?his trucks?for superior?long term service reliability?as far as the systems. There is not?much one can do with batteries except change them out when needed.??I have a complete pack which I doubt you would need. In a worst case replacing all of them would be 4000 dollars. In a best case scenario you would only need one replacement module of 150 dollars. The modules are 11 cells and a single cell can be replaced but to do this the module should not have been charged or discharged for several weeks. You risk damaging all the cells in a module if you don't allow the to sit before removing one. ?
As far as building your own EV you could?not build an AC drive EV for 15,000 of this quality. For another 1400 dollars to have a scan tool is a very wise investment.?Your going to be able ?to read a BMS that conversion EVs?only dream of having. I have been looking at the Tech2 prices for years and that is a fair price for a working one. I paid 3300 for a new Tech2 so that is less than half the price of a new one. ?
You have come to the right place to get your questions answered. Lots of the list members are very knowledgeable and helpful. Parts unlike?some?OEM EVs?are still available if needed. Fire away with any questions you have.
?
Don
?
?
?
?
?
From: Naiche Lujan <[email removed]>
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To: [email removed]
References: <[email removed]>
In-Reply-To: <[email removed]>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 09:10:51 -0700
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Subject: [S10-EV] New member of the list, asking advice
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?
Hello S10 community,
? I just signed up because I need some advice. There is someone selling their
S10 EV and I'm exploring the possibility of being an S10 owner. I'm curious
to know what is it like?
? Here is the listing text:
----------------------
I am selling my 1997 S-10EV. It runs perfectly. This was the last of Jeff
Thomas NiMH trucks that he upgraded/sold. I purchased it in August, 2007. I
have driven it daily and not had one problem with it. Comes with 2 chargers
(one portable). It has under 17,000 miles on it. I have kept it garaged the
whole time I've owned it. I can send pictures to anyone interested. I am
selling for best offer over $8,500. I am moving and need to sell soon.
-----------------------
? While the range has been claimed to be between 45-60 miles, this seller is
saying he only gets 20-30 miles, although he says he lives in Oakland and
drives a lot of hills. Would that mean that the pack is getting older and
losing much of its capacity? I NEED a minimum of 30 miles so I guess I need
to gauge whether or not I would need to invest in new batteries, and if so,
get a sense for how much that would cost.
? I also heard that there have been issues over the years with the drive
system. The seller recommended I also purchase his scanner diagnostic tool
($1400). He said that that is the only way to know what is wrong with the
car should something happen.
? My long term plans are to build my own conversion, but as there are so many
changes happening right now, and prices are beginning to drop on high-price
items, it seems like a good idea to have an interim EV so I can get off gas
NOW.
? Thanks for any advice you can offer.
? Best,
Naiche -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________
S10-EV mailing list
[email removed]
http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/s10-ev
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Hello Naiche It appears you might have already made up your mind. I am still going to respond about your concerns because some of your beliefs are misconceptions. First off there are some very intelligent and helpful people on this list. There is also always going to be some contact off the list that does not appear here. As an S-10 driver and list member many times you will be contracted directly if your looking for support. Also I am going to ramble on a bit about some S-10 and general EV information. Yes the current low range of the truck you were considering is an issue but it sounds like a bad cell or two. Other then dropping the pack this is not a big deal. Several owners on this list have dropped their pack in their garage. One S-10 driver is also looking at simple ways to modify the tray so it would be easier to remove and install. He has not posted this but during our phone conversation I was going over his ideas while inspecting an S-10 tray on my stand. It appears to me it will work and it would make dropping the pack much easier. I am not sure if you read my prior post or it was just I was not clear enough. There are replacement used modules available and they cost less then lead acid batteries. The Ovonic modules are 11 cells and you can press one out and replace them as needed. At a cost of less than 14 dollars a cell that would be hard to beat. These used modules have far more cycle life and useable capacity then new lead acid batteries. Once the existing pack range is fixed it should be very close to the 45 or 50 miles you were hoping for. To do this you need to have a woken up module which I would be willing to drop my pack and provide. Swapping out cells is something you would want to do with bench testing not in a vehicle. This allows you could take voltage readings of all the cells during charging and discharging. If your capable of doing this then replacing cells is an option. Swapping out with a complete module is easier but it needs to be fully woken up. This means one that has been cycled for several months or two to three thousand miles. I have around three hundred Ovonic modules and three running S-10 trucks that have already been upgraded. There is no lack of modules for NiMH S-10 drivers. Also in my prior email I said parts are not a problem. Many new replacement parts are still as far as I know available from GM. Even if GM discontinued the S-10 EV parts we are still in good shape. I have a large stock of most parts including the critical ones to supply the current fleet of S-10 trucks for a very long time. As long as GM keeps selling S-10 parts my business can buy most small parts for 30% off list. This is a savings that I would pass on to anyone here for an S-10 EV. The only added cost would be for shipping. No S-10 owner on this list is going to have a useless vehicle because of a lack of parts. In a worst case scenario I have several complete non running S 10 trucks. If needed I most likely would part one out to keep a driver going. Honestly I can't think of any parts I missing other then the lower front air dam which is not a critical part. Most of the critical parts based on Jeff's advise I bought in quantity years ago the air dams were all gone by then. Jeff has taken back on the fan buffer so that part is far better then OEM. Concerning charging it is very simple to make a charger portable. You can buy used chargers for 250 dollars from the EAA plus shipping. This works great for charging anywhere including in front of your garage. There has been no pack fires in a couple of years that I am aware of. You also talked about buying the scan tool and this would help you to spot a problem module. The truck shell and EV running gear with no batteries is worth a lot try pricing out all the parts needed to build an EV. Since it is running and has a pack without a lot of miles it sounds like a bargain. A complete replacement pack is 4000 dollars compare this price to any other EV modules. A decent pack of AGM lead acid batteries is going to cost you around 6000 dollars. At best the Lead pack is going to last 15,000 miles and it will have several failed modules and reduced range before it gets to the 15,000 mile mark. If you try to drive it 40 miles a day it will soon have a quick death. So advantage goes to used NiMH modules. Check around for long life on lead it is recommended you do not use more then 50% of an AGM packs capacity. So if it was good for 50 miles that means keeping trips to 25 miles or less before charging. Lead really does not respond well to deep discharging push a pack for range and you will start losing batteries. Also it is recommended to keep lead at 12.6 volts if the voltage is less it will start to deteriorate. You don't have this problem of damage caused by sitting around in a lower voltage state with NiMH batteries. Going by little information you provided it is unlikely a lead acid EV would be a good fit for you. Speaking of pricing out parts for an EV try finding a 6600 watt charger for an EV that works with a BMS. A Brusa is a good charger but it will also set you back about 4000 dollars and it only is a 3300 watt charger. If you wanted to charge as fast as the Magne charger you would need two units which double the cost to 8000 dollars. There are other less sophisticated chargers but your still going to spend thousands. The Ranger OEM charger is a 5000 watt charger and the last I heard used ones were going around 1900 dollars. The Ranger charger also has a very high failure rate. Many Ranger trucks are already on their second charger and some are even on their third charger. NiMH packs also last longer if not fully discharged with every cycle. This means keeping the SOC of the pack from going below the 12 o'clock position that is about 50% of the rated capacity. For most S-10s this is about 45 to 50 miles if driven like an EV and with no heavy loads. So cycle life would be greatly increased along with far more range over lead. I believe by the time these NiMH packs are no longer really useable there is going to be far less expensive LifePo4 replacements. Right now the inexpensive LifePo4 packs are 10 to 12 thousand dollars. Its a little of an unknown how long they will last being this is the least costly LifePo4. To build a high end pack like say using A123 cells will set you back 30 to 50 thousand dollars. This is just the batteries alone. There are new OEM EVs coming from Nissan and GM soon but they are going to be a very limited supply. I have not heard anyone is planning to build EV pickups so right now the S-10 and Ranger are still the best EV trucks in the world. As others have pointed out building your own is not even going to be anything close to these trucks. Its also going to cost you far more money and time. The only other major OEM EV out there is the RAV4. Right now they are going for about what the new Leaf would cost after tax credit. Overall they were the most dependable and expensive EVs excluding the Tesla. However now that their packs are getting older they are having their issues. The RAV does not have good cooling in all areas of the tray. Sad because the pack I believe would have lasted from 120 to 150 thousand miles if not used in a hot climate and with reasonable loads. So if the S-10 heat pump system is in good working order the S-10 has a vastly superior tray for the NiMH battery. One has to remember the Gen2 Ovonic is from 1999 the Panasonic in the RAV's is several years later and improved. The NiMH chemistry has been greatly improved since then. The Ovonic now has three times the cycle life as the second generation. Which would far exceed the Panasonic but unfortunately we will never be able to buy them. I guess it all depends how passionate you are about driving electric. The S-10 is one of the least expensive EVs you can drive daily. Its not perfect but then nothing else is either. I am not sure where you are located but for most of the country there is no service support for any EV. You really need to be able to do your own service work or have access to someone who can. I try to be cautious about recommending anything and maybe a little too cautious when it comes to charging EVs. Personally I use to charge in a garage but over the years there has been a few events that I now I try to only charge outdoors. The chance of any EV starting a fire is low but I am only satisfied with a zero chance. That might be a little a over the top but that requires moving the EV outside. Personally I don't see this as a big deal or a deal breaker. I would expect when the new EVs are mass produced like the ones that are coming any chance of a fire will vastly be reduced. It took a few years for some of the current issues to develop and with a good manufacturer most all would be eliminated. Its such a pleasure to drive an EV its kind of hard to describe in words. A fact I was reminded of just last week. I had to pick up a part for the shop which was not ready. So I went for a walk which took me past a gas station. A half a block from a gas station the smell was so strong it was sickening. I could hardly believe how bad it was and actually went in a different direction back so I did not have to smell it. This is amazing to me because in my younger years gas did not bother me at all. I hope nothing I said above comes across as condescending or as an attack on you personally. I commend you for wanting to drive electric and wish you the best. Don Hey Guys, Thanks for your responses. I have determined that for a couple of reasons
this is probably not the car for me. The current expected range coupled with
the lack of availability of new cells and charging makes it a particularly
nerve racking idea. As I stated, my round trip daily distance is about 30
miles, actually about 32 miles. So, I would need to have 40-50 miles to feel
comfortable that my needs would be covered if I needed to take a detour, or
some other reason. And while the S10EV community is very helpful, it is
frustrating that you can not secure specialty parts that may render the
vehicle useless.
The range coupled with the lack of charging locations at work are really the
problem. My parking situation is too far from any electrical outlet to allow
for opportunity charging at work. :( Finally, the only charging place at home is in a garage. And now that I've
found out the potential danger of spontaneous combustion, I'm thinking I
will need to find another way to go. Again, thank you for the help, Naiche
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Hi everybody,
I don't post to this list very often - but I read all of the posts. Thought I would tell you about a different kind of driving experience I had last week. Most of the talk on this list is about getting more range, and some of that has focused on making the truck lighter. Has anyone else had any experience driving the truck with a full payload? Last week I drove our S10 to a neighboring town to pick up our winter's supply of wood stove pellets. I started with a full charge. When I got home I still had a bit of charge left, the trip odometer read 45.6 miles and half of that mileage was carrying 1,000 pounds of pellets. I recharged the truck and went back for a second load with similar results. We rarely use that much of the charge - most of our trips are around town 5-10 miles. And we drive very conservatively as most EV drivers do. We have only seen the Battery Life light twice in 3 years and 14,000 miles and both of those happened in the first weeks we owned it - I did it once and my wife did it once; and now we know where the line is not to cross. We plan our trips very carefully. I was a little concerned about this expedition because I did not know how the payload would effect range. I have been led to believe by the information from this list that range would be greatly diminished, which was a concern since the trip was close to the maximum range of the truck. I decided to risk it figuring AAA could bail me out with a tow if I ran out of charge. As near as I could tell there was very little impact on the range. The route was fairly level and I was able to stay on secondary roads never exceeded 55 MPH and probably averaging closer to 40-45 MPH. I also notice no difference in the performance - current draw during acceleration, braking, etc. The truck handled it just fine. I was very surprised at all of this. I would not consider using this truck as a regular workhorse - it is far too valuable to risk wearing out that way. But it is interesting to see it will handle a load on occasion. Has anyone else had experience with this? Richard P. -------------- next part --------------
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Yes, I have hauled a full heaping bed of wood chips and had results similar to yours.
My range was normal and the truck performed well.
I did not drive any hills.
That might be a problem with a full load.
The truck seems to be well designed for use.
Mine is a NiMH battery truck. Stephen in Oakland On Sep 12, 2010, at 5:57 PM, [email removed] wrote: > Hi everybody,
> I don't post to this list very often - but I read all of the posts. Thought I would tell you about a different kind of driving experience I had last week. Most of the talk on this list is about getting more range, and some of that has focused on making the truck lighter. Has anyone else had any experience driving the truck with a full payload?
> > Last week I drove our S10 to a neighboring town to pick up our winter's supply of wood stove pellets. I started with a full charge. When I got home I still had a bit of charge left, the trip odometer read 45.6 miles and half of that mileage was carrying 1,000 pounds of pellets. I recharged the truck and went back for a second load with similar results. > > We rarely use that much of the charge - most of our trips are around town 5-10 miles. And we drive very conservatively as most EV drivers do. We have only seen the Battery Life light twice in 3 years and 14,000 miles and both of those happened in the first weeks we owned it - I did it once and my wife did it once; and now we know where the line is not to cross. We plan our trips very carefully.
> > I was a little concerned about this expedition because I did not know how the payload would effect range. I have been led to believe by the information from this list that range would be greatly diminished, which was a concern since the trip was close to the maximum range of the truck. I decided to risk it figuring AAA could bail me out with a tow if I ran out of charge. As near as I could tell there was very little impact on the range. The route was fairly level and I was able to stay on secondary roads never exceeded 55 MPH and probably averaging closer to 40-45 MPH. I also notice no difference in the performance - current draw during acceleration, braking, etc. The truck handled it just fine. I was very surprised at all of this. I would not consider using this truck as a regular workhorse - it is far too valuable to risk wearing out that way. But it is interesting to see it will handle a load on occasion. > > Has anyone else had experience with this?
> > Richard P.
> > _______________________________________________
> S10-EV mailing list
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Hello Richard I load up the truck once in a while. If I am loading heavy items I try and put them near the cab so the truck will not sag in the rear as much. I try and make sure I have close to a full charge as possible if I have to go up any hills. I also back off or pull over and let drivers go by. I try to keep the load on the pack in the 70 amp range or less. Some times that means taking different routes. Weight is not too bad except on hills. Hills with added loads are just huge increase in demand on the pack. It is a little added wear on the drive train but nothing I believe to worry about. It is an added load to the pack on flat ground but not bad. Overall I find using the A/C would have more effect on your range or driving at higher speeds. Using the A/C around town the load just keeps going like at stop lights so the longer your drive the more loss of range you have due to the heat pump running. Using the heater when the diesel heater is on only takes about 2 amps. Using the heat pump for heat or cooling with the temp setting on full is more like 6 or 7 amps. The truck running uses 1 to 1.5 amps. All other loads are on top of the 1 to 1.5 amps. If you reduce the temp setting on the A/C all the way in the red. The pump runs on about three amps and it still blows cold air. This might not work for anyone in really warm areas but at 80 or 85 its not bad and you use half as much energy. If you would like to see some testing on loads and accessories for the S-10 take a look at this link _http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/sce_sum/s10nimhsum.pdf_ (http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/sce_sum/s10nimhsum.pdf) It appears to show stop and go driving has a great loss of energy which makes sense. I don't agree with the A/C load test when the ambient air as low as 50 degrees. At that temperature the A/C on high as they show would have almost no effect. They should have tried that run when it is like 80 or 90 degrees outside. I have posted this link before but it is one of my favorites in case anyone has not seen it. Lots of S-10 information as well as Ranger, RAV4, and many other EVs. Here is the link _http://avt.inel.gov/fsev.shtml_ (http://avt.inel.gov/fsev.shtml) Don In a message dated 9/12/2010 7:14:15 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [email removed] writes: Hi everybody,
I don't post to this list very often - but I read all of the posts. Though=
t I would tell you about a different kind of driving experience I had last=
week. Most of the talk on this list is about getting more range, and some=
of that has focused on making the truck lighter. Has anyone else had any=
experience driving the truck with a full payload? Last week I drove our S10 to a neighboring town to pick up our winter's=
supply of wood stove pellets. I started with a full charge. When I got ho=
me I still had a bit of charge left, the trip odometer read 45.6 miles and=
half of that mileage was carrying 1,000 pounds of pellets. I recharged th=
e truck and went back for a second load with similar results.=20 We rarely use that much of the charge - most of our trips are around town=
5-10 miles. And we drive very conservatively as most EV drivers do. We ha=
ve only seen the Battery Life light twice in 3 years and 14,000 miles and=
both of those happened in the first weeks we owned it - I did it once an=
d my wife did it once; and now we know where the line is not to cross. We=
plan our trips very carefully. I was a little concerned about this expedition because I did not know how=
the payload would effect range. I have been led to believe by the informa=
tion from this list that range would be greatly diminished, which was a co=
ncern since the trip was close to the maximum range of the truck. I decide=
d to risk it figuring AAA could bail me out with a tow if I ran out of cha=
rge. As near as I could tell there was very little impact on the range. Th=
e route was fairly level and I was able to stay on secondary roads never=
exceeded 55 MPH and probably averaging closer to 40-45 MPH. I also notice=
no difference in the performance - current draw during acceleration, brak=
ing, etc. The truck handled it just fine. I was very surprised at all of=
this. I would not consider using this truck as a regular workhorse - it=
is far too valuable to risk wearing out that way. But it is interesting=
to see it will handle a load on occasion.=20 Has anyone else had experience with this? Richard P. -------------- next part --------------
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